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nOVA sCOTIA

Judging from the results this year 90% of growers have % heavy dialed in and some have it really dialed in. Skinner ,Cindy ,Ron ,Barron, Jeff Theil and many more .I believe it is more in our soil than genetics causing our pumpkins to go wayyyy over the chart and would love to get some info on this topic here on this site for myself and other growers who had pumpkins go under the chart this year. It would be nice to see the information shared right here !! Thank you :)

11/7/2021 7:55:25 AM

Diamond, Ohio

I think genetics play a big part in this. I will post my soil test results on my diary. Maybe Jeff will chime in, I know he’s been trying to pinpoint the secret to going heavy and he’s clearly doing something right.

11/7/2021 9:28:19 AM

Austin MN

I think genetics and Soil. Last time I grew I had a fruit that went 14% heavy and one that went 3% lite. Both grown only 10 feet apart from each other.

11/7/2021 3:20:30 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

17 out of the top 100 pumpkins went light to the chart this year. Out of the 17 that went light 11 were at -5% or less which i wouldn't even count as light.The remaining 6 were -6,-6,-7,-8,-10 and - 11 % . Genetics ? Very little to do with it in my mind

11/7/2021 4:57:26 PM

Nova Scotia

Carl,
Maybe the question needs to be how many of those going light were grown indoors? From just looking at what has been grown here on the island inside the last few years almost all have gone ligh. Mine have been light inside and outside for many years and have had grown some heavy genetics so possibly connected to my soil and moisture levels but look at the ones that have gone heavy here the last few years; all outside I bet. The ones inside all light. Seems too much of a coincidence to not factor in the environment "inside" not just the soil. Many of the top weights are also grown inside and are well over the charts so what is it they might be doing to encourage those fruit to be over that the rest are not?

11/7/2021 5:54:11 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

John the 2624 Willemijns was grown in a greenhouse very similar to mine in structure and was grown off the 2145 McMullen. It was 21% over the chart . Mine are full of 2145 so no i can't agree on inside growing causing them to go light .It is definitely in our soil conditions and would love to hear some science from the pros right here on this site as there are many that have it dialed in. All you have to do is look at results over the last ew years

11/7/2021 6:11:15 PM

Nova Scotia

I hope you get some feedback as I would great to understand how growers are achieving those boulder heavy year in and out. Best of luck!

11/7/2021 7:05:57 PM

Syracuse, NY

I'm pretty sure but cannot look at PumpkinFanatic on this computer that per cent heavy and outer dimensions have to work TOGETHER to produce a heavy pumpkin, all other things being suddenly irrelevant; If a fruit has huge outer dimensions and is ALSO thick through and through, THEN it is a record breaker. Otherwise, it is 'just' a huge surprise at the weighoff and also as to how it compares to the chart; If it grows dimensionally greater INward, then it is a thick-walled, 'percent-heavy' fruit. Imagining the same-weighted fruit, if genetically geared toward LARGER dimensions but thinner flesh, it will become a 'percent light' fruit; It will weigh whatever it was destined to weigh naturally unless both the thickness and size of the actual fruit are CAUSED TO BE in sync to be BOTH big AND percent heavy. Maybe a new category of 'percent large' is needed and new equations and seed choices can be derived therefrom, lol, like as in torque and horsepower curves of an engine. - eg

11/7/2021 8:06:57 PM

Grittyville, WA

DONKIN you may be doing well? Yours was a bit of a wheel shape??? The barrel/blob shape will go heavier? Maybe you could improve but I think its partly just getting the math (measuring) in your favor?
I think growers are pushing out their time on the vine longer? Those days when it shows a meager 5 lb gain may really be a 10 lb gain. The longer it's on the vine the heavier it will go to chart.
Yes it would be nice if there were secret fertilizing tricks if people would share them... someday. My guess would be a lot of it is in the roots/soil but maybe theres optimal temperature fluctuations or humidity also.

11/7/2021 8:10:53 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

It was not a wheel and it was on the vine for 100 days. I'm hoping for some discussion on percent heavy not only for myself but other growers as well

11/7/2021 8:21:10 PM

Grittyville, WA

A plant that had phyto a couple years ago was my biggest disappointment as far as % heavy. I know I'm not in your league but that experience pointed directly to the roots/ the uptake from the soil.

11/7/2021 8:42:59 PM

Dillonvale, Ohio

Even being mentioned with those greats is an honor.
As far as % heavy is concerned, it is definitely genetics and soil related. Exactly what in the soil causes heavy, I don't know....yet. It has nothing to do with being on the vine longer, my 3 heaviest were all under 100 days old, with the lowest % heavy being only 74 DAP. A greenhouse doesn't matter either, there are too many examples of heavy and light, with and without a greenhouse. Shape may be a small factor, tall ones seem to go heavy, but I've seen ones not tall go heavy as well, Dibble had 1 at Ohio Valley if I'm not mistaken. The crazy shape ones almost always go light. I had a beanbag squash last year that went 13% light. I guarantee shape caused it to go light. Heavy is in the soil, 1 day we'll all know what it is

11/7/2021 9:52:04 PM

Netherlands

If you analyse this phenomenom long enough, you'll see that certain seeds tend to produce heavier fruit, but not consistantly. There are growers who always have light fruit regardless of which seed, so genetics is not the major contributor. Shape is also not a (major) contributor as most growers have grown all kinds of shapes with the same results. That many of these growers grow inside leads me to believe it is the soil and the moisture levels, the last one possibly being the most important. Not all growers growing inside have light pumpkins, so the inside issue is not the main reason. Yet most of us who grow inside tend to water too little compared to how much moisture there is in outside soil due to natural rainfall. I have seen this with quite a few inside growers and often you only notice it when you rip out the plant and see how dry it is deeper down. Obviously a pumpkin plant cannot take up nutrients from dry soil so the question remains, if moisture levels are the problem, why does the pumpkin not simply grow less and instead just produce thinner walls?

11/8/2021 2:46:02 AM

Syracuse, NY

I agree with you, DB - if it's raining out, water as much as that INside. Although I've never had a REAL one, I can say with some certainty that the main purpose of a greenhouse is protection of the plant. As with the perhaps lighter watering, 'they' are also affecting temperatures and otherwise-naturally-occurring wind and insectoidal/pathogenic pressures within one.


I had TOO much rain this year and let's just say I could tell it killed many of my worms, with that probably contributing to massive soil dilemmas as well;
Ignore this, please, (or put it to good use) - 'as above, so below'. - eg
PS---once we cross anything with anything, we are affecting the genetic makeup of the resulting seeds in reference to the parent seeds. Therefore, there is NO guarantee that...never mind. eg

11/8/2021 4:02:28 AM

Dillonvale, Ohio

I believe genetics is more of a factor than people realize. Why do HD contenders go lighter to chart? Why does the same grower go 7%, 11% and 14% heavy in the same year? You could argue that there's something different in the soil at those 3 plants, but that's a pretty big difference in % for genetics to be a minor factor

11/8/2021 7:35:23 AM

Westmoreland, KS

I think my season last year would be a pretty darn good example for % heavy. The 1612 Marintzer I believe was the heaviest one over 1000 pounds at 26% heavy. I chose the 1989 daletas seed because I like the shape of the pumpkin was tall and I figured it had the best chance of setting the Kansas record. And then chose the 2416 Haist seed Because I saw it produced very heavy pumpkins and I want to be more known for producing have a Pumpkins in the future. That was my goal. I grew these two in a greenhouse the amendments were exactly the same the soil pretty much exactly the same. Agree with them back to back about 3 feet from each other. One growing in one direction and the other growing in the other direction. Both pumpkins were over 100 days old when I picked them. One went one percent light the other one 26% heavy. I definitely believe my soil helped produce the heavy Pumpkin because I have worked on it very diligently over the past 10 years to get the soil just right. But without that haist seed I would never have grown one 26% heavy

11/8/2021 8:20:48 AM

Westmoreland, KS

* I grew them back to back about 3 feet apart

11/8/2021 8:21:47 AM

Bethlehem CT

Interesting about back to back. It is a common in nature that when two like species have root tips touch eachother that they graft together. Essentially sharing the roots.

11/8/2021 8:31:40 AM

Bethlehem CT

Some % heavy myths that I have heard over the years.
!. Pumpkins that grow fast go light.
2. Therefore pumpkins grown in the south, tend to be light. (looking at this years stats it almost looks to be the opposite with many in Canada going light.) Jake, in Kansas going heavy would have been considered a real feat that was unattainable a few years back
3. High wheel shapes will go light.
4. Squashes go heavy
5. Canteloping is a good indicator of a heavy pumpkin.
6. If a pumpkin thumps like a rock it is heavy.
7. Younger pumpkins are not likely to be heavy.
8. Dry soil will grow lighter pumpkins than wet.
9. Pretty orange pumpkins go light.

I could go on and on. Most of these myths have been disproven over the years. I am not sure if there is a silver bullet, but my guess would be that it is largely a cultural thing(s) that is being done by the grower perhaps they don't even know quite what it is. I have seen many a disappointed face on even the best growers when their pumpkin's weight shows up on the screen.

11/8/2021 8:41:04 AM

Bethlehem CT

My pumpkins almost always go light. Root must play a big part (which Brad mentioned) I am sure soil texture and porosity plays a role as well. I have never really worked my soil deeply or used walking boards in the patch. (Most years I don't even cover my vines.) I treat mine like any other field crop. The best growers always say. "The more effort you put into this hobby, the better you will do.) I find that to be true.

11/8/2021 8:51:02 AM

Western NY

A lot of plants under my belt at this point, and here's what I've noticed:

1 - Genetics is most influential. You'll still get a few duds from a "heavy seed" if enough are planted, but I suspect that around 80-90% of the variation can be explained via genetics. It's also exactly *why* we have "chart creep". I'm not sure what % we're adding per year on average, but it's there - especially on the top end now. Selective breeding at its finest - not too many growers are willing to plant the ones 10% under chart or worse, so those are selected out. Unless they're a HD winner, which is why you'll still see a fairly pervasive tilt toward orange doing worse to the chart. I think this bias is going to slowly be erased in the next 5 years as more orange 2145 lines are mixed with the traditionally pure red / orange lines.

2 - Climate / weather - There's a reason that Utah has historically been light to the chart. I have to think that humidity % has something to do with it.

3 - Soil - a long time ago, I had a project collecting soil test results and comparing them to pumpkin results. The data is noisy and you can't point to a certain perfect soil giving you an advantage in raw weight, but I did see a weak correlation with % heavy on a few parameters. I'm not sure how statically significant it really was but I would not be surprised if certain soils can account for a couple % on the chart.

4 - Fruit age. you'll pick up a few % as it gets older. This has been shown a few times that I know of by those growing on a scale. It's not the major contributor, but between d50 and d100 you should pick up a few percent in "thickness".

11/8/2021 9:31:16 AM

Westmoreland, KS

Great stuff Andy...The humidity factor is very interesting. I was thinking possibly altitude was a big factor. The Colorado boys always seem to be light to the chart. I was chalking it up to altitude however their humidity is way lower than mine. It could be a humidity thing...my humidity is extremely high so that is a very good thought.

11/8/2021 9:50:46 AM

Boscawen, NH

If you go to this link and read the study on impact of ethylene application on tomatoes you will see how the cell division phase of a fruit "can" impact final weight,density and size. Look very closely at all the charts comparing size, weight and cell numbers and you will likely have an aha moment. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12833032_Early_Application_of_Ethrel_Extends_Tomato_Fruit_Cell_Division_and_Increases_Fruit_Size_and_Yield_with_Ripening_Delay
Once you are done doing that do a quick search on "weather & temperature impact on cell division and final weight of tomatoes and you will likely have another aha moment.

11/8/2021 10:37:49 AM

Grittyville, WA

andy w-- what were the weak parameters? Some people get so offended by answers that arent concrete that it can inhibit discussion.

I think having plenty of calcium via clay or gypsum or other amendments could be really important. Water and root health are such important factors in keeping the calcium high. The effectiveness of the roots in delivering calcium (and other minerals but calcium is the real gauge of it) could be enhanced by a rich soil chemistry and a healthy soil biology and the plant's general photosynthetic efficiency.

11/8/2021 11:34:32 AM

Centennial Colorado

There is a really small difference in weight on the scale with elevation. A 1500 pound pumpkin at sea level would weigh about 1/2 of a pound to a pound less at my elevation. Genetics and environment are the main reasons I would say for %heavy vs % light. The average pumpkin in Colorado weighs about 9% light from my statistical analysis of over 100 pumpkins. In general, there was a correlation between increased weight and increased % light for my environment. Contrary to at sea level with increased weight being increased % heavy. Also, in Colorado, the younger the pumpkin, the more likely it is to go % heavy.

11/8/2021 12:55:01 PM

Springfield, VT

Just to add to the discussion. AT least in my patch wet years tend to have pumpkins go light to chart. It is probably due to 3 or four factors. The first is less overall sunlight from cloudy sky's. Second cooler soils from the cold rain and lack of full sun. Third nutrient issues from the excessive moisture and any diseases caused by wet soils. In the end it is usually a bunch of interconnected small issues affecting the overall weight.

11/8/2021 2:17:42 PM

Rhode Island

a lot depends on whos doing the measuring as well. lots of variations if tape is placed in different locations.
Having said that, i also strongly believe that besides the genetic aspect OF what,how and when you feed the soil & pumpkin goes a long way to build wall thickness as well (potash?)
.

11/8/2021 2:50:07 PM

Westmoreland, KS

very true pap...my 1990 that year was a weird shape. i had it measure at a little over 1800 so there was a good possibility that it was also 8-10% heavy to chart

11/8/2021 4:34:44 PM

Bethlehem CT

Interesting about humidity, but I would guess Spain and Italy as well as California have much lower Relative humidity than the eastern US. Perhaps the altitude has more of an effect, than we think. I would bet Colorado and perhaps Utah growers live at a higher altitude.

11/8/2021 4:48:01 PM

Eugene,OR

I’m a believe that where you are located makes a significant difference. That is part of the reason why I moved to the Pacific Northwest a little over a year ago. I also am a believer that if you want to be competitive you’d better grow something that has been proven to go heavy. This year I became very convinced that how you water & feed your plant makes a big difference on percent heavy too. It is not just one factor. Hey, if it was easy it wouldn’t be nearly as fun when you get it right!

11/8/2021 5:02:56 PM

Western NY

Gritty - it was the micronutrients. Oddly enough, the lower the numbers, the better they did to the chart.

Again - low sample size, not a perfect correlation, ect.

11/8/2021 6:30:33 PM

Deer Park, WI

Such a complex question with so many variables. I dont particularly give thought to the oversimplified either/or of genetics vs soil. That reduces a high complexity topic to a very limited scope of considerations. Instead, I feel the question to ask is "what variables that we feel reasonably sure about can we modify?" Planting seeds with known history helps. Is it concrete? far from. We just dont know. but it is a variable we can control for. Soil? everyone agrees that dialing macro/micro nutrients is good for all aspects of growing. A question without an answer is which nutrients specificially offer an advantage to fruit density if/when their levels are higher relative to other nutrients? Again, we simply do not know. Any answers here are wild speculation. Why? because so many other factors likely contribute to fruit density that you cannot remove those variables to perform controlled experiments to determine what nutrients influence density, if any at all.

11/10/2021 8:14:56 AM

Deer Park, WI

Weather/climate. again, a likely contributor and something we can somewhat control for. Which factors drive growth and density? Like some of you, i believe humidity may play a role. Elevation/altitude? maybe, i dunno. Apologies i dont have much to offer here than gray clouds of skepticism, just trying to be practical about how we draw conclusions.

Here's another angle to possibly look at this. Like Mr. Geddes, perhaps we can turn to research on commericially/economically valuble fruits and veggies where real science has attempted to unravel mysteries like growth influencers and density influencers. Coming from the corn and soybean world, much work has been put into understanding that factors that drive "test weight" in corn. TW is term ascribed to corn seed density in this world and is akin to % heavy" in our world. Farmers, like pumpkin growers, appreciate higher test weights. when you can pack more starch into a smaller volume, (increased density), there are rewards to be reaped.

11/10/2021 8:24:01 AM

Deer Park, WI

What can we learn from the corn world? Test weight is perhaps most negatively influenced by plant stress, notably thru the onset of disease and other factors that erode a plant's photosynthetic capabilities. Another "duh" moment here...a healthier plant is better for the corn grain...or pumpkin. But hang tight. what Im saying is a healthier plant is better for kernel/fruit density. Perhaps another question to ask is "what late season plant stressors could limit photosynthetic production?"

Here's another angle to consider. Another primary driver of test weight in corn is moderate night time temperatures during the "grain fill" time of year...July, August, Sept. Sound familiar? Finicky plants pushed to performance extremes need "goldilocks" conditions to exceed expectations. How does this apply to night time temps? A metaphor: plants need to "sleep" just like animals/humans do. Lower temperatures and absence of light facilitate sleep for both plants and animals. At night, a plants metabolic activity shifts focus from photosynthesis to a process called "respiration". Respiration is an energy-intensive process that is governed by temperature. The plant needs some warmth to efficienty move starch from the leaves to the fruit. But it also needs cool temps to dial down the energy-intensive respiration process. Do you sleep more restfully in a 65 degree room or a 75 degree room? The simple logic here applies to a giant pumpkin as much as it does to you, dear reader.

11/10/2021 8:34:27 AM

Deer Park, WI

An excercise that could possibly be performed to explore how/if nighttime temps infuence %heavy would be to chart real temps vs pumpkin weights on a large database of fruit. There seems to be observations above that Utah generally goes light to the charts. Is this partially driven by a night time temp thing? maybe. maybe that high elevation, dryer air cools off too much at night, slowing down the starch translocation process. Goldilocks cold oatmeal. High humidity enviros like the southern midwest cannot allow nighttime temps to cool off enough to preserve metabolic energy...Goldilocks oatmeal is too hot. This is a known trend in the corn/test weight world. Excessive heat and humidity during nighttime grain fill does limit corn grain density. And, by the way, this test weight thing is not at all related to corn yield (pumpkin weight in our world). So theres's another tidbit to consider...corn weight (yeild) and corn density (TW) are completely unrelated factors. Perhaps so it goes in the pumpkin world? Makes sense. we have small pumpkins with huge % heavy and vice versa. This is complicated stuff. No one knows the answers. so many interconnections. Oh, another point, TW in corn is absolutely driven by genetics too. Many farmers plant specific hybrids exclusively for their genetic predisposition to higher density. I beleive this translates to pumpkins as well.

Final comment- once again going to commend Carl for posing the questions that get dialog stirring. while we may not always agree on the answers, I've always appreciated his willingness to ask the tough questions and spark meaningful conversation.

11/10/2021 8:44:18 AM

South East

The more off the chart is, the bigger the need to adjust it. The goal is beat your fellow growers, not to beat the chart. The chart is just a guessing tool.
A fruit light to chart that's heavier then the fruit that goes heavy to the chart always wins.
Its about end weight, not density.

11/10/2021 9:20:33 AM

Grittyville, WA

Interesting. Sorry if this isnt well edited but heres some scatterbrained thoughts:

So we have a theory here that cool temps arent efficient enough for growth, but high night time temps would not preserve metabolic energy... if temps are too cool not all of energy production gets translocated to the pumpkin, but if temps are too warm, then if the pumpkin runs out of photoassymilates and it may be showing high daily gains but the cells are aging prematurely and this will cut the overall potential for more gains short. I think growers in hot climates do know from experience that while heat is good for watermelons its not a goldilocks factor for pumpkins.

Cellular youthfulness: The aging process isnt just temperature it could be increased by more UV light (higher elevation) and free radicals (ph/soil chemistry).

Some plant hormones might additionally protect the plant from aging, and compounds like vitamin c would be protective, whereas excess aluminim or any lack of micronutrients/phenol compounds might increase premature aging? Things that act as chelators may also reduce free radical damage (humic/fulvic).

At this level, pumpkin plants and humans do become chemically similar??
It seems to me that achieving youthful skin...(plump and vibrant) might be similar to getting good pumpkin results.

Potassium, water, and anti-aging tricks that may actually work (for example blocking uv light).

And no cheating by injecting things...

11/10/2021 10:45:57 AM

Grittyville, WA

Speaking of the chart, it does look like it will have to be adjusted again at some point.

11/10/2021 10:49:02 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

In my mind all you need to do is check out results the last couple of years . Every seed under the sun is going on or well over the chart. No real standouts. The only real standouts are growers names who constantly go over the chart. Ron Wallace is a perfect example ,Barron ,Skinner are others. But if you look at Rons results since 2014 you can easily see that he has this percent heavy dialed in. Example
2014 (1754 grown off the 2009 was -4 %
2015 (2230 grown off the 2009 was +16 %
2016 (1864 Wallace grown off the 1790 Wallace +10
2017 (1733 Wallace grown of the 2145 +5
2018 (1806 Wallace grown off 2261 Wallace +7
2018 (2114 Wallace grown off the 2145 +11
2019 (1984 Wallace grown off the 1733 +14
2020 (2054 grown off the 2226 Boonenherman +6
2021 (2201 grown off the 2183 +17
It doesn't matter what seed Ron grown its going over the chart . In my mind genetics are only a small piece of this puzzle and the results on the GPC page prove it. Soil and moisture levels definitely play a bigger role in percent heavy. I can tell you one thing ,i was definitely more than generous with my tape when measuring because of the shape circumference wise. Could gain or lose many inches depending on where cir was taken . So yes i do agree that depending on who is measuring plays a role as well

11/10/2021 12:00:33 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

Lots of chatter about boron and calcium levels lately so maybe thats the ticket ,,lol

11/10/2021 12:02:52 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

I need some help here . I only want to grow a pumpkin or maybe a squash this year bigger than everyone else and what is wrong with that,,,lol

11/10/2021 12:10:58 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I've not grown for a few years, so take this for what it's worth. I remember hearing for years that Calcium was "the bus" and boron was "the driver". I believe that timing is everything.

11/10/2021 2:05:45 PM

Colorado

Joe i like your goldilocks two hot or too cold story.% heavy has gotta be multifactoral and complicated.I rarely get anything over the chart here in colorado.Ive always wondered is it hot days/cool nights or lower O2/CO2 levels at 5340 ft elevation.Our Hot days may simply mature the fruit too fast to get 100/110 days of weight gains on a pumpkin.Just dont know

11/10/2021 3:29:03 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

The OTT chart is running a bit heavy on the upper end of OTTs, which it usually does over time, but it's not quite as bad as it looks from looking at the top 100 by weight.

To assess it fairly you have to use OTT cut offs and not weight cut offs. Any weight cut off (e.g. top 100 by weight, pumpkins over 2000 lbs, etc.) will be biased heavy to chart because even when the chart is a perfect match, a weight cut off necessarily captures the heavy pumpkins and excludes light pumpkins for a given OTT. (The light pumpkins were grown they are just... lighter, so they don't make the weight cut off.)

Here are the average biases for the largest by OTT (460in and over, which is where it's the worst) and overall for the 2017 GPC OTT chart:

Year OTTover460" AllAG
2021 +4.55% -0.15%
2020 +2.09% +0.34%
2019 +3.33% +0.42%
2018 +4.31% +0.12%
2017 -2.44% -1.31%

11/10/2021 11:55:16 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

The 1885.5 Werner seed (7 grown) and the 2183.7 Mendi seed (33 grown) both averaged just over 3% heavy in 2021.

11/11/2021 12:03:10 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Also here are the average Squash OTTs on the 2017 GPC OTT chart since 2017:

Year AllSQ
2021 +0.16%
2020 -0.02%
2019 -0.34%
2018 -2.56%
2017 -1.82%

It does seem like squash are trying to get heavier to chart over time to catch up to the AG.

1109 Jutras seed (13 grown) over the past two years: +6% heavy.

11/11/2021 12:31:32 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Sorry for jumping back and forth.

Here's the over/under count for percent chart for the top 100 AG by OTT in 2021 (429" OTT and above):
62 over / 38 under (compared to expected 50 over / 50 under)
+2.4% average percent chart (Standard Deviation is 7.3 percentage points)

It doesn't take much to really skew that 50:50 balance because so many pumpkins fall in the +/- 5% range

11/11/2021 12:55:07 AM

Lloydminster/AB

vapour pressure deficit

11/11/2021 1:22:28 AM

Netherlands

What I have noticed is that German and Dutch pumpkins (northern Europe) tend to go lighter than pumpkins from central Europe. Most of the big German and Dutch growers grow inside, but so do many Belgian and other central European growers. The Dutch growers I visited that always have pumpkins going light have two things in common: they lived in the north of the country and their soil was way to dry.

11/11/2021 2:42:24 AM

Syracuse, NY

I think myself and Frank and Tina are on the same page, literally as well as figuratively - mission accomplished! eg

11/12/2021 5:03:31 AM

Littlerock, WA

The previous year, I grew a 2145 on a scale, and learned that it kept adding pounds even when the tape wasn't adding inches. That leads me to speculate that density, or heaviness is something that is largely achieved in the latter days of the fruit's growth. I noticed this season with Mean Joe Green, my 2030 that was 18% heavy, the tape stopped giving me inches much earlier that I had hoped, but it was splitting and oozing from the shoulders, clearly indicating to me that there was still gas left in the tank, and the growth was happening on the INSIDE. I had a heavy year, in fact, if you analyze all the growers worldwide, I had the best average for heaviness (I suppose that's cool, but I'd rather be grower of the year, lol). I'm not sure what made all mine go heavy, but I think that the growing conditions were favorable enough that they all got a bit of an extra push in the eleventh hour. Mean Joe Green, even more so with his late season enclosure was really able to capitalize on the extra warmth and humidity and thicken up. I pushed him hard at the end for extra growth with Co2, night heaters, and didn't let off the accelerator with the water and ferts.

11/12/2021 5:10:01 PM

Dillonvale, Ohio

That's interesting that you say heaviness is something achieved later. When thumped with the heel of my hand, my 22% heavy pumpkin last year sounded different 2 weeks before she was cut free. However, my pumpkin from this year didn't seem to change sound, she was only 15% heavy though.

11/12/2021 10:33:33 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

Someone above mentioned inconsistency in measuring, and I think that is key. I don't mean the grower isn't consistent with their measurement. But compared to John next door with the exact shape pumpkin and seed might have the tape positioned a fraction different over the 15 feet of circumference and lumps. Measuring isn't exact, but the weight is.

11/12/2021 10:51:32 PM

Grittyville, WA

Comparing the Booth and Mendi pumpkins #5 and #6 this year @ 2356 lbs apiece I see that a 5" difference in their respective measuring caused only a 2% difference in their % hvy to chart (12% vs 10%).

That doesnt seem too significant. My additional guesses: The shape of the pumpkin for most would be ballpark 5% of variability... and the "optimal genetic expression" would normally be about 12% or so.

Those wpuld be my guesses... optimal shape plus optimal genetic expression (genes plus care) = 17% hvy... etc-- you get the idea.

11/13/2021 1:18:04 AM

Colorado

How about shape vs volume vs 3way inches.Im no engineer/math wizard but ive always thought a very round pumpkin would measure less inches than a low squatty fruit thats the identical volume.

11/13/2021 3:51:57 PM

Western PA

I have to add something that I have not read above yet. I am leaning towards what Steve Geddes mentioned, but will expand on a topic that nobody has mentioned yet, and If I missed it, my apologies.

Mike Schmit, AKA mobymike, has grown at least two pumpkins on a scale during the season. He grows outside in Wisconsin . He said in one of his videos this year, that his pumpkin he grew this year was 10% heavy to chart (at day 20 I think), and kept that % heavy till the end.
he said that the other one he grew on a scale did the exact same thing.

So, with that being said, I would have to think that having the right nutrients in the soil at the pre pollination time is a huge deal. ( and no, I don't know that combination yet, lol ).

This will explain why the heavy hitters with A LOT of years under their belts, consistently weigh heavy to chart. Yes, they know their soil after doing this for years. And the other things like water, play a role too I'm sure, but a smaller role in my opinion.

Sure , differences in measuring can happen, but you can't disagree with what a scale says at day 20, day 30, 40...etc.

11/13/2021 3:57:39 PM

Western PA

Tissue testing, is a must at pre pollination next season for me.
I also do agree that genetics would surely play a big role, but if your nutrient levels are out slightly, that could possible make a potential heavy pumpkin, end up going light.

11/13/2021 4:10:55 PM

Watlington, UK

Another thing not mentioned yet is dehydration before weigh off.

This year mine went light. Reason being (possibly) that root rot had set in a few weeks prior to weigh-off, so the pumpkin wasn't taking in any more water, in fact it would have been dehydrating and therefore losing weight.

Same with the Patons, they harvested several weeks before the weigh-off, meaning their pumpkin will have spent weeks shedding several pounds by dehydration.

The actual size of the pumpkins will not have gone down much
because of the thick skin, but dehydration will have caused weight loss.

SO - if this is the case, best keep pumpkins healthy and on the vine as long as possible.

11/14/2021 4:14:02 PM

Syracuse, NY

A percent-heavy fruit does not have much going for it other than that it is a thick pumpkin, being that until it is weighed, whether at home or at the weighoff, no one knows how many percent heavy it is. Does anyone hear me? Does that make sense to anyone? Lessay you have a measured-at-1000-pound pumpkin and it goes 1250#.
Is that 25% heavy?
WOWWWWWW!!!
Did it win at the weighoff?
Well, no...third place.
But, still, 25% heavy!
WOWWWWW!!!
Better plant THAT seed again!
Now, why did the other growers win 1st and 2nd place?
Were theirs heavier to the chart?
No? Only 10-15% heavy.
Then how the...Oh, maybe some guy I read from said you hafta get your pumpkin as BIG as possible and ALSO be hoping for any thickness-inducing genes AND growing tactics to add weight to my getting-super-large-now pumpkin. It is what we all want and strive to do anyway, but it seems that where there's more-notably ONE of the TWO needed characteristics (I cannot research this right now) for 'Big AND Heavy', the other is lacking enough to ONLY cause notice of how percent heavy or percent light it was. Again - Percent Large? Opening both eyes will enable us to focus with greater depth perception as to how to encourage BOTH, (sorry, I meant to say BOTH) to be there. Those may never reliably happen together, but when you see my mouth a-flappin', take notes, lol!
Every sold hammer has hit a nail...

One thing that would be an example for even ME would be to leave the extra vine on the stem of any pumpkin. I have a habit of liking a nice and neat stem area for ease of management later, but a lot of top growers, I see, leave it or them on there - It can be the little things! Maybe ONLY watering incessantly at night?
Even I've been doing that - I'm not a morning person, lol - eric g

11/14/2021 5:11:22 PM

Midway, UT

Growers in Colorado and Utah tend to go light, particularly in hot years. That might be from under watering, but it is consistent. In my experience, under fertilization makes them go light, weather makes them go light and genetics. Certain genetic lines you can easily see the vast majority of the seeds going heavy, even with a large sample of growers planting it. I think we've done some un-natural selection in our seed picking process that has favored genetics that tend to go heavier. I've also seen a trend over the last 5-7 years towards heavier fertilization. I think the combination have increased the averages for % heavy.

11/17/2021 3:38:33 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Andy Wolf nailed it along with a few others.

11/22/2021 10:53:47 PM