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nOVA sCOTIA

Is it impossible to get a squash first year ?

3/7/2021 8:47:50 AM

Guelph, Ontario

Basically.

If pumpkin has a squash parent, then 50% chance. But you should be able to check parentage

3/7/2021 10:26:40 AM

North Of The Border

It is a recessive gene that causes it to go green. If you look at a punent square type diagram, it should have a 25% chance of going green. You could take it and plant four, then see which one(s) will go green. If it goes green, self it, and it will produce green offspring.

It is possible, and the 1844 holub was grown off of the 1060 Holub pumpkin, 1478.5 Holub by self, 282 Scherber by 615 Cantrel, and the Cantrel was squash by squash. So essentially, pumpkin by self, pumpkin by self, pumpkin by pumpkin, one was pumpkin by pumpkin, the other squash by squash. So in the great grandparent stage, 4 pumpkins, four squash.
The 913 Boyce squash was 100% greenie, but the 1221.5 Robinson was squash by pumpkin. This makes the 1844.5 Holub 62.5% pumpkin, and only 37.5% squash.

3/7/2021 11:45:59 AM

North Of The Border

Hope that wasn't just a whole bunch of rambling.

3/7/2021 11:46:44 AM

Syracuse, NY

Sure got ME looking into it, literally - The Holub pumpkins sure had nice shape and he knows how to take a picture; all i know is that i'd be hot for a 1935.5 Jutras now that the auctions are getting overwith, lol. now, i need a nap. eg

3/7/2021 12:06:42 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

1844 Holub x 2145 McMullen

3/7/2021 12:43:16 PM

On a cliff in the desert

How about 1326.5* YoungDon/Rhodes X 1838 Jutras?

3/7/2021 1:28:33 PM

Iowa

In a dominant/recessive gene relationship if both parents are pure in that one is pure dominant gene CC and other pure recessive cc then first year offspring would all exhibit the dominant trait because they would all be Cc. If the parent exhibiting the dominant gene has the recessive gene in it's history then it could have been Cc, therefore a 50% chance of first year offspring exhibiting the recessive trait.

3/7/2021 2:49:40 PM

Colorado

Scott holub could give you a better answer than me. my guess is no squash first generation. And if you selfed ist generation and grew those seeds from a plant that looked like the original 1844 you'd get 25% of those producing a strong squash colored fruit, 25% weak squash color and 50% non squash color.

3/7/2021 4:18:22 PM

Upper Strasburg, PA

I’d be curious to hear about the authentication of the 2145 seed that grew that squash. There have been a ton of 2145s planted and 2145 x self, 2145 backcrosses, 2145 remakes, and there’s not one other example of a squash that I know of. It wouldn’t be the first time something like that happened, as there was the 703* Smith about 20 years ago that was a 3rd generation selfed 935 Lloyd. However, it is a little bit suspicious.

3/7/2021 5:33:21 PM

Gourd Zone, WA

I would assume the squash grown off the 2145 was the pink/algae green color scheme gone fully to one side but yes it could have been a seed mix up. I dont see how that could be a real genetic possibility unless there was an ability to randomly mutate back and forth.

3/7/2021 5:50:25 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Yes, any F1 (first generation AGxSQ cross) will look like an AG, but have a green gene hidden.

Here's the full accounting of the *1844.5 Holub pedigree (Note: visibly green fruit are marked with *, otherwise fruit are AG-looking. Probably makes the most sense to read it bottom to top):

3/7/2021 6:04:50 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Year Fruit/Seed Wt Name..(Mother seed x Father Seed [Pollinating Fruit]), Notes

2016 1545.5 Holub......(2109 Zywiec x 1060 Holub [*1844.5 Holub]), Seeds are "New-New F1"- will throw all AG-looking, genetically 87.5%/12.5% AG/SQ

2019 *1935.5 Jutras.....(*1844.5 Holub x Self [*1935.5 Jutras]), Seeds are "new F4", will throw all SQ (green baby females), genetically 75%/25% AG/SQ
2017 *2118 Jutras.....(*1844.5 Holub x Self [*2118 Jutras]), Seeds are "new F4", will throw all SQ (green baby females), genetically 75%/25% AG/SQ
2017 *1807.5 Holub.....(*1844.5 Holub x Self [*1807.5 Holub]), Seeds are "new F4", will throw all SQ (green baby females), genetically 75%/25% AG/SQ
2016 *1844.5 Holub.....(1060 Holub x Self [*1844.5 Holub]), Seeds are "new F3" selected for green, will throw all SQ (green baby females), genetically 75%/25% AG/SQ
2015 1060 Holub........(1478.5 Holub x Self [ 1060 Holub]), Seeds are "new F2" - will throw 1/4 SQ, 3/4 AG-looking, genetically 75%/25% AG/SQ
2014 1478.5 Holub......(282 Scherber x 615 Cantrell [*1578 Holub]), Seeds are AGx(F3 SQxAG selected for green) - "New F1" will throw all AG-looking, genetically 75%/25% AG/SQ

2014 *1578 Holub.......(615 Cantrell x Self [*1578 Holub]), Seeds are F3 SQxAG selected for green - will throw all SQ (green baby females), genetically 50%/50% AG/SQ
2013 615 Cantrell......(*913 Boyce x *1221.5 Robinson [Unknown - likely AG]), Seeds are F2 SQxAG - will throw 1/4 SQ, 3/4 AG-looking, genetically 50%/50% AG/SQ
2012 *1221.5 Robinson..(*996 Haist x 1807.5 Stelts [Unknown - likely AG]), Seeds are F1 SQxAG - will throw all AG-looking, genetically 50%/50% AG/SQ
2011 * 913 Boyce.......(*800 Neily x 1634 Werner [ 1421 Boyce]), Seeds are F1 SQxAG - will throw all AG-looking, genetically 50%/50% AG/SQ

Also notable:
2013 282 Scherber......(1725 Harp [2009 Wallace clone]

3/7/2021 6:05:06 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Opps. Here's the full last line:
2013 282 Scherber ......(1725 Harp [2009 Wallace clone] x self [2009 Wallace clone]), Seeds are AG and 100% 2009 Wallace plant genetics, genetically 100% AG.

3/7/2021 6:05:51 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

Also worth mentioning that a green baby female doesn't always stay green:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=24&p=629637

Since that post the *2118 has thrown some white/cream ones too. I haven't heard of many white/cream from *1807.5 or *1935.

3/7/2021 6:09:11 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

1300 Graham est (2020) 1844 x 2145. Was just wondering if it is possible to put out a green squash first year or no ? I think from what i'm reading Scott they will be all AG looking ?

3/7/2021 6:32:18 PM

Gourd Zone, WA

Pretty much. I dont know of a case where green has been dominant the first year out. The McMullen will have the usual dominant pumpkin color genes to get rid of. But there is a cream/opaque that is probably recessive to green. Otherwise it would be easier to shed the cream gene out of the squash genetics. So arguably there is a chance you could cross a pumpkin with purely recessive cream genes (no green genes) and still get a light green squash the first generation out. But to get a true green would be impossible in the first generation of a squash x 2145, as far as I know. Prove me wrong...

3/7/2021 7:58:27 PM

Gourd Zone, WA

*could cross (a squash) into a pumpkin with...

3/7/2021 8:00:01 PM

Upper Strasburg, PA

The expression of so many different colors and the possibility of having multiple colors expressed on the same fruit make me question the idea that color phenotypes are a simple dominant/recessive thing with one gene. There seem to be oddballs like the white/cream 2118s and the 703* Smith and the 1326.5* Young/Rhodes that indicate a more complicated genome for color. Looking at those examples, there seem to be 2 possible explanations: 1) color expressions are polygenic traits or 2) there is an inaccurate pedigree (which could be explained by pollen contamination, not necessarily a seed mix up). Back when people saw the beautiful orange pumpkins grown on the 1370 Rose seed, some folks said there’s no way that came from a 1260 Weir x 712 Kuhn... maybe that’s an example we can learn from when it comes to color phenotypes.

3/7/2021 9:24:52 PM

Gourd Zone, WA

The 2363 Holland threw the beautiful 1608 Sperry. I think a 64 square (8 x 8) punnet diagram is not implausible with two versions (recessive and dominant) white/cream genes mixing with orange and red and blue/grey?
I think a 64 square diagram would yield about 16 unique color schemes. Someday we will know. The 1806 Sperry (pollinated by the plant that grew the 1608) and 2089 Thompson offspring grabbed the improbable genetic configuration for orange color out of the 2363. Kinda fun to keep an eye out for these lucky rolls of the dice.

3/8/2021 2:14:16 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

Thank you Scott Holub that's all i need to know .

3/8/2021 6:46:44 AM