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South Arkansas

I just read Ivan's post today explaining his growing environment and his view on pushing growers into two watermelon categories. Ivan and his cousin are avid watermelon growers who are willing to travel internationally to compete in watermelon events but they have been negatively affected by a growing club rule that puts them in a different category from most watermelon growers. Ivan seems to make a plea for just one watermelon category and in the process makes a good case for using just one category.

10/22/2013 10:29:06 AM

Alaska

Until plants can start grafting themselves grafted watermelons don't belong in the Natural Plant world section of the Guinness World Book of Records One plant from one seed has always been the rule. What's wrong with two classes? That IMHO is the only way to do it right on a local level. Guinness is another story as I stated above.

10/22/2013 3:09:41 PM

formerly RGG

Thanks Lloyd, you are making a very smart and well thought out conclusion. Spudley,please read big moon's post, second post below this one. Grafts do occur in nature !!! So now I am sure you have changed your mind and see that grafted watermelons now belong in the "Natural Plant world section". In my humble opinion 2 separate classes is completely ridiculous. Come on now people, let us catch up to the rest of the world. Grafting has been here for millions of years and is here to stay. IT IS NATURAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!

10/22/2013 3:32:29 PM

Alaska

I have to respectively disagree.

10/22/2013 3:52:17 PM

Alaska

http://www.carmodymcknight.com/more-information/41/
More food for thought????

10/22/2013 4:01:31 PM

sevierville, Tn

I feel there should be only 1 category. Grafting is just another method to help grow, just like ferts, biological admendments, greenhouses, ect. They all help. There is no short cuts.
**GRAFTING IS NOT A SILVER BULLET ! **
If you can't grow, grafting will not help you.
My largest & my SMALLEST melons were from grafting !
Most of the growers that used grafting this year would have had a larger melon if a regular melon had been planted in its place.
IMHO I feel that grafting gives us a few years look into the future. We have now had a plus 300lb regular melon. In a few years regular melons will outpace grafted ones. The genetics
are improving at a fast pace !

10/22/2013 5:18:18 PM

The North Coast

That is ludicrous...

10/22/2013 5:33:51 PM

South Arkansas

Ivan's post made no reference to Guinness. He is a good watermelon grower who grafts out of necessity due to the region where he lives. Going back to the use of just one watermelon category seems to be a fair thing to do for growers like him. He seems willing to share what he knows about grafting with others who are interested.

10/22/2013 6:57:47 PM

formerly RGG

Grafting can be difficult. I tried a few grafts this spring and none of them took. When grafts do take there is often a problem with disease that would not have been encountered if the plant had not been grafted. But the reward for a healthy graft that turns out disease free can be as much as a world record. Chris' melon would probably not have reached the size it did were it not for the grafted rootstock.I say if a growers is willing to go to the trouble and risk of growing a grafted plant, then let him reap the reward for all the extra tender loving care he has put into his endeavor. The GWG is the only organization in the world I know of that makes a distinction between grafted and non grafted plants. Please let this ignorance come to an end.

10/22/2013 7:13:20 PM

formerly RGG

Lloyd, I certainly see where you are coming from. Ivan Bartoli simply cannot be competitive without grafted plants due to disease problems in his soil. There is nothing he can do about this problem because he does not have the amount of land he would need to do proper crop rotation. Even a grower like myself who is confined to a small backyard garden is liable to run into similar disease problems from being compelled to grow in the same soil year after year. In such cases we have little chance of being competitive if we don't use grafted rootstock.

10/22/2013 7:21:15 PM

formerly RGG

So why would it not be fair to a fine upstanding international grower like Mr Bartoli to allow him to compete for the top prizes and not be relegated into a secondary category that seems somewhat tainted ?

10/22/2013 7:24:28 PM

formerly RGG

Mr Bright, are any of the other GWG committee members in agreement with you on this matter ? I am just surprised you were willing to make a public statement on the matter as I understood all committee members were in agreement on the GWG policy of different categories for grafted and non grafted melons. I want to congratulate you for seeing the future of this hobby we love. One day the GWG will reverse this policy and I hope it is sooner rather than later. Please help your fine organization to view this matter the same way as Guiness, the GPC and all other organizations I am aware of. It is time for some forward thinking. The GWG needs to get this issue behind it.

10/22/2013 7:36:12 PM

formerly RGG

Spudley, the article you reference on grape growing seems completely irrelevant to the matter of giant watermelon growing on grafted plants. If you think it is relevant, please make your case. The wines produced from GMO plants may or may not taste different. My question is, even if they do taste different or whatever else is suggested in this article such as toxic wine, what does that have to do with plant grafts sometimes happening in nature or anything else pertinent to this discussion of grafted watermelon plants being fair for competition?

10/22/2013 7:52:19 PM

formerly RGG

What I think is unfair, and what Mr Bright pointed out so well, is that some very good growers would not have a chance to grow a competitive melon were it not for grafting, due to inability to rotate their crops and the resulting disease in their soil.

10/22/2013 8:15:30 PM

formerly RGG

Grafted watermelon plant growers are giant watermelon growers with advanced skills. They are not tricksters who need to be relegated to a different class. I think the GWG membership should be allowed a vote on this matter. I would love to join the organization again provided there is majority rule on this one matter.

10/22/2013 8:32:23 PM

Garner, NC

dennis, the commitee members have and will always strive to better the club and the hobby of growing giants. During the winter we discuss everything from newsletters,payouts, trophys, rosettes,auctions, seed sales, and graft and traditional, and a ton of other stuff. During the off season, we will all get together to plan things for a great 2014 season, so I beg you, please don't beat the graft-traditional debate all winter long. have faith that all committe members will work to make the GWG the best club. So, please let us finish this season, then we'll get to work on next season. thanks

10/22/2013 8:53:04 PM

Orange Patch

Food for thought:

If someone went to a commercial greenhouse, picked up a nice grafted watermelon plant (or pumpkin, tomato, etc...) and it grew a fruit that beat everyone else did they do it all by themself? or did they just grow out someone else's plant?

What if a buddy sent them plants he started?

Now if one grew their own rootstock and scion and grafted it, they'd believed that they did it all by themself and thus entitled to all the rewards that would go with it!

10/22/2013 9:01:46 PM

formerly RGG

Todd, I was answering a thread started by one of the other committee members. Is is barely one month into fall. Winter is in about 2 more months. This is not the GWG website. I think my opinion is as welcome here as that of anyone else. I have always freely given my opinion in response to what others have to say and I will continue to do so. I am sorry if I have offended you.

10/22/2013 9:13:06 PM

formerly RGG

Yamms, that is a good point, but it is nothing that is enforceable. The GWG could not have a rule that a grower has to graft his own plants.All growers will not always be honest. Such a rule would disqualify the 350.5 Kent because it was grafted by Nathan Okorn. Grafting takes a lot of skill, time and patience. Personally, I have a difficult time seeing well enough to make a good graft union. However I am going to keep trying to make the practice work for me.But I won't feel like I have cheated anyone if I get some kind soul such as Nathan to help me accomplish this task.

10/22/2013 9:20:40 PM

Glosta

just my 2 cents.


If you need to grow the plant naturally then you need to make a seperate category for chemical fungicides and pesticides because where in nature would these plant get these!

this could go on for decades this stupid argument. We do what we can with what we have available to push the fruits to their limit. to seperate the categories is just an unfair way to weed out those who have put the time in to get where they are.

10/22/2013 9:44:33 PM

Muddy Waters

Yamms that is silly! I give plants a way all the time, have for years.I dont take credit for what the folks grow once they take it home and care for it.Thats where the real work begins, anyone can stick a seed in a pot.

10/22/2013 10:04:12 PM

Muddy Waters

anyone can graft its simple stuff

10/22/2013 10:05:14 PM

sevierville, Tn

yamms...who are you ??
so to follow your theme....where do you stop....if you grow a seed that is not yours, do you still get all the rewards ????????? after all , that plant came from a seed that you didn't grow !

10/22/2013 10:19:20 PM

sevierville, Tn

Nathan, what is ludicrous ???

10/22/2013 10:20:45 PM

Bethlehem CT

I graft in my shed under shoplights, with a plastic dome for humidity. It doesn't require anything fancy, grafted plants are not GMO's.

10/22/2013 10:21:34 PM

Bethlehem CT

Chris, I am pretty sure he is referring to the link posted above your post. Spudley I have tremendous respect for you as a grower, You are one of the most gifted growers on this entire website. But I disagree with you on this grafting subject.

10/22/2013 10:25:09 PM

sevierville, Tn

Big moon ..meaning that you feel that grafting will dominate for a long time ?

I may be wrong on that, so just in case, i am practicing grafting. I have my 1st set in the healing chamber right now !
After 4 failed attempts last year, i need lots of practice ! LOL

10/22/2013 10:33:20 PM

Ky

I am all for grafting or anything else that will produce a larger watermelon.

It is my opinion there should be only one category, no matter how it was grow, the results are what counts.

But: I think that the record on the genetics should say the melon was a graft, so that we know that the genetics of the melon are from the original non graft melon, so that you don't just plant a seed and think it is going to be as big as the graft, if that makes sense.

Otis

10/22/2013 10:58:43 PM

Ontario

TD, Lloyd Bright was a committee member on the GWG, he decided to step down from the position earlier this year. Currently there are 4 committee members on the the GWG. As Todd has stated, those committee members will discuss over the winter how the GWG members felt about the season and the 2 categories.

I am a bit unclear about what Ivan Bartoli wants. There is no rule at any weigh-off about 2 melon categories, or with the GPC, or with the WWGG. So is he asking the GWG to change it's decision on 2 categories? Unclear as to why he would want that, or anyone would want that, unless it is for the money.

After polling the GWG members, the majority decision was that traditional growers did not want to compete against grafted growers, plain and simple. The membership helped decide this, not just the committee members. This was shown in our membership numbers when they joined the category the wanted to compete in.

This will all be discussed at the end of the season and the GWG will try and do what is right for the majority of the membership.

10/23/2013 5:52:00 AM

formerly RGG

I apologize Mr Mailey. I did not realize Lloyd Bright had stepped down from the position. I do like his sense of fairness and forward thinking though.

10/23/2013 7:47:33 AM

sevierville, Tn

yamms, Here is Nathans own words on the grafted plant " If I did the graft and gave it to someone who breaks the record. They broke the record but I would have created the plant."

So hopefully that answers your question from the expert.

10/23/2013 1:45:55 PM

Bethlehem CT

Chris, I agree with what you said about the future of traditionally grown plants. Grafting has not been a silver bullet for me either. There are things that I like about grafting and things that I don't. As of right now the third largest melon ever grown was grown on it's own roots. It is too early to make a verdict. I am excited to see what the future will bring.
As far as who started the plants it doesn't really matter to me. It is the grower (you) who has to get the plant to produce up to it's potential. If I had been given the same plant that grew your world record I would have been fortunate to get it to 150 pounds. LOL

10/23/2013 7:42:52 PM

Watervalley Ms

If you need to know, that the plant was grafted or not, before you plant the seed, you know there is a big difference if it has been grafted.
When a graft takes place your changing the plant. When you change what you use on a plant, the plant stays the same you just get different effects. UNLESS everybody is going to grow grafts there should be two categories. AS for the largest melon in the world that is Chris Kent's 350.5 grafted, but me I would rather have some seeds from Bill Edwards 316 traditional melon. For those that have soil problems we move soil all the time. NO offence meant Chris about the seeds. That is my two cents worth.

10/23/2013 10:12:10 PM

Watervalley Ms

NO offence meant of my comments, it is just my thoughts.

10/23/2013 10:30:27 PM

sevierville, Tn

No problem Jerry, FWIT i plan to plant the 316 edwards, i think its a super cross. I was going to make that cross this year(2014) but Bill saved me the trouble.

10/23/2013 10:48:37 PM

Netherlands

Just a few remarks.

Grafting is not the issue. I don't think anyone has a problem with grafting anything. The discussion is: what are the rules?

At local, regional or international levels you can make rules. They can include grafting. If they do, grafting is not an issue.

The problem is, who sets the rules? In the giant vegetable world we tend to see Guinness as the rule maker. And they say, one seed, one plant. No grafting. This rule is for all things in the Natural World, not just watermelons.

It is very difficult (ie. impossible) to set up an alternative governing body with the stature of Guinness. It is even harder to make Guinness change their rules. Been there, tried that.

Last of all. Perhaps roots and a few plants graft themselves in nature. Watermelons don't.

10/24/2013 6:47:52 AM

Muddy Waters

I remember "If it looks like a watermelon It's a watermelon"The Pumpkin people changed the coloring rule on the Kins years ago.If its all green its squash,all others are kins.I dont agree with that ruling,but its not going to stop me from growing.I think all the ugly 75% green kins should be squash.

You CAN enforce color rulings.

You cant enforce the melon/graft ruling.All a grower has to do is say its a traditional plant.Some growers lie now & say there friend or neighbor grew in there patch,when they really didnt.It cant be enforced.Nobody is going to accuse a guy of cheating at a weigh -off.So if they all were in 1 class it would stop all the cheating.If it looks like a melon its a melon.After all a lot of Pumpkins dont look like a pumpkin,but they are!Who knows how they were grown?and from what??

10/24/2013 8:14:27 AM

Ontario

If people need to cheat and lie for a few bucks.... it's a very sad thing.

I have never agreed with a grower taking extra entries, like say a long gourd, to a weigh-off and enter it under their wife or kids name for the sake of winning a few extra dollars. If the grower did grow several different fruit on the same plant, be honest and enter them as exhibition.

Same can be said for growing traditional or grafted watermelons, be honest and compete against your peers. Some people want to graft, some people don't, it's not an issue anymore.

I cannot understand why people who want to graft or have no problems with grafting are constantly trying to change the minds of those who chose not to graft. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and bashing and belittling people who have a different opinion is nothing more than childish bullying behavior!! I really wish people would just grow up and stop all the ridiculous nonsense regarding this topic.

There is a group of watermelon growers out there that chose to compete against each other growing watermelons from one seed, one plant...why is this such a problem? It is their choice!!!

If you want to graft, go ahead and do it.... no one cares anymore how you grow a watermelon. Just be honest about what you are doing for the sake of the hobby and those who chose not to graft.

If you need to be a liar or cheater for a few extra dollars, then so be it.... it's your skin you have to live in.

10/24/2013 9:12:43 AM

Ky

I think the end result is what matters, how it is grown does not matter.

If you seperate this for two categories, then why not also separate the greenhouse grown watermelons and pumpkins from the ones that are grown the traditional way in the open air field.

Think about that one, all that matters is the result.

Otis

10/24/2013 3:20:31 PM

Watervalley Ms

The plant never changes Otis, if planted in the greenhouse or outside. The only thing that has changed is what the grower is doing , and that can be good or bad for the plant. IF you graft the plant ,( you have changed the plant), now that is different than just changing ferts or inside , outside. JUST MY thoughts Jerry

10/24/2013 5:56:52 PM

formerly RGG

Grafters work hard to get a small advantage and sometimes just to get on equal footing with growers who do not have diseased soil. And all this to receive a much lesser prize from the GWG if that grower is a member and competing for their prize money. It just isn't fair. A melon is a melon is a melon...........GWG members can attempt to bully us into thinking otherwise all they want to. And they can accuse us of being the bullies. But we know better than that. One day they will see the error of their ways.

10/24/2013 6:29:38 PM

Ky

Quote (: The plant never changes Otis, if planted in the greenhouse or outside. The only thing that has changed is what the grower is doing , and that can be good or bad for the plant. IF you graft the plant ,( you have changed the plant), now that is different than just changing ferts or inside , outside. JUST MY thoughts Jerry


Jerry, grafting does not change the genetics of the melon, the genetics remain the same.

otis :)

10/24/2013 8:17:36 PM

Ky

Just my 2cents, If you took a graft verses a non graft,melon and sent them to a lab they would be genetically identical. So the end result are identical melons.

10/24/2013 8:22:57 PM

Muddy Waters

Yes it is very sad Bryan.A lot of folks do it.More then you think.look around you will be suprised.

10/24/2013 8:26:33 PM

Muddy Waters

Yes I wont argue this out all winter.Its not worth it I dont even plan to grow melons next year.I think the GWG will do right thing if given time & a chance to think about the pros & cons.Lets not let this get nasty & turn into a mud slinging dork fest.I know some great growers who do not believe the grafting has any superiority over traditional.Maybe it doesnt?Who really knows at this point.Maybe it was purely Chris Kents gifted growing and some great products that put him at the top.Next year were going to use some products we didnt use this year on kins & melons.Maybe next year Chris grows a 400 lber on a traditional plant.It would not surprise me,at AWL!So in the meantime Dont forget to respect & give your giant veggie buddy a big,I can respect your opinion. ATTABOY!!!

10/25/2013 8:30:23 AM

Watervalley Ms

Your right Otis, it does not change the genetics of the melon. But grafting changes the potential of the plant, no longer a watermelon plant top and bottom. you are getting different results because of a different root system. Not because the grower has got any better, or found a new product that really works, But because he changed the plant. Jerry ;)

10/25/2013 9:35:54 AM

Watervalley Ms

lol your post Handy was not up when I wrote the above so my comment has nothing to do with yours. I liked the looks of some of those products and most likely will try a few.

10/25/2013 10:07:13 AM

Ontario

I am not surprised at all Mark, I see it all the time and plain and simply just don't agree with it, but I cannot change peoples mind set. I can only do what I think is fair and right for myself.... enter one giant per class per weigh-off that I grew from seed to fruit.

10/25/2013 10:23:05 AM

Netherlands

Well Bryan, I'd advise you not to move to Belgium. I've seen guys there enter 4 or 5 fruit under their kids' names, the maiden name of their wife and whatever else they can think of except their own name.
It's really hard keeping track of genetics there.

10/25/2013 10:57:38 AM

Cleveland, Tenn

It seems to me that the percentage of members that signed up for their particular growing method would indicate the general line of thinking at least in this club. Nathan did us all a big favor by helping introducing us to grafting.I think that without his generous time and efforts there would have been far fewer grafts tried this year. In light of this why not give the two catagories one more year. maybe after that we'll all be grafting. :0)

10/26/2013 4:26:36 PM

Rhode Island

im sure glad the giant pumpkin growers groups dont get to fired up about how contestants grow their giant pumpkins.

does it really matter if you graft it,use secret formulas,take it to bed at night or even grow it in a conventional manner? how bout suspended in a sling or fed organic and chemical additives both? the shame of it all--lol

the ag contest is for weight. the heaviest wins.how you get there (as long as its sound and no breach or foreigh matter of course)then its good to go.dont mellons deserve the same?
grafting has been around longer than all of us.

pap

10/29/2013 9:42:09 AM

Corryton, TN

It's no different here pap just a different fruit and a little different topic. Look at the debate that flares up periodically on growing organically over there on how we're destroying the earth, killing all the bees, causing new diseases and fungus strains. It the fault of the giant growers.

I don't think it really matters to most how or what you use, what secret formula you use (just be sure and tell me). Thought about using a sling too.

It's kind of like the squash division. At some weigh-offs they all compete together and at others they're segregated and treated how it's deemed appropriate. At this time there is only one category in the GPC as is should be at this time. There is no issue. The GWG, a private club with separate awards, has two categories with defined classes. Just so happens at this time more folks choose to grow traditional so that's where the larger payout is. Who knows this may all be reversed in a year or two. Depends on its members. Any suggestions on how they pay out should be taken up by their members on their message board.

10/29/2013 2:02:54 PM

Rhode Island

good point brother dave. its all good i suppose.

10/29/2013 4:52:39 PM

50 Acres

I don,t grow watermelons, but I applaud those who graft. It takes growing to a new level, Having said that, will someone show me how to graft to a maple tree so I can beat Ron and PaP. lol

10/29/2013 7:11:36 PM

Linden, Mi.,

:)

10/29/2013 7:25:17 PM

Alaska

Well then if grafting is okay then why not GMO's? I see a third class coming. Just asking?

10/29/2013 8:47:58 PM

SW Ohio

At this time.. I dont believe there are any genetically modified watermelon seeds available for purchase.

10/29/2013 9:44:13 PM

Muddy Waters

Amen Pap!You cant police how there grown.Its not possible.

10/29/2013 9:51:20 PM

sevierville, Tn

Great Idea Scott, that can be our winter project. We can insert the pumpkin growth gene into the melon genome to create the first 1 ton melon !!!

10/29/2013 10:03:58 PM

sevierville, Tn

i can set up a project on 'kickstarter" to raise the funds. Who wants to join up with me ????

10/29/2013 10:06:09 PM

Alaska

Yahoo!!

10/29/2013 10:50:42 PM