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The North Coast

Does anyone want to make a run at any records? The grafting of watermelon, cantelope, and the like does result in higher resistance to disease, increased vigor, greater density, and higher wieghts. If you are willing to absorb modest production costs I can provide what you need. I dont have the time/space needed to grow grafted watermelon this year but I still could produce the plant that broke the record. I dont want to be overwhelmed this spring so only serious growing efforts will be accomodated. I would rather have all plants picked up but I could mail them if it could be done safely. I have two highly proven commercial rootstocks and AG to be grafted onto. Any squash, melon, or cucumber will be improved by grafting. I have grafted hundreds of plants and I am very familiar with the results. If you are interested please email me a description of your intentions for 2012 and I will get back to you. I also could entertain the idea of the grafting of tomatoes for all the same benefits. I have experience there too. My location is western North Carolina.

nathanokorn@bellsouth.net

2/1/2012 9:30:13 AM

formerly RGG

If the results are so great why is there no record of ANY big Carolina Cross melons having been grown by this method ?

2/1/2012 8:26:30 PM

Muddy Waters

If you do a melon what are we grafting from?Just asking?Im a little confused on this.How do you produce the plant that broke the record???

2/1/2012 10:53:57 PM

Western NY

Mark - the idea is to use a good, vigorous, disease -resistant rootstock and graft that to your 255 seedling.

This assumes that:

- his rootstock is superior to the natural roots of the top producing melons we have currently bred.

- the grafting process does not damage the vascular tissue to sufficiently hinder growth.

Keep in mind this a already a proven technique, just not in our field of play. Could be interesting to try out.

2/1/2012 11:31:24 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

I've grafted stuff but not tried 'kins, melons or maters, yet. Biggest issue for me is what would be a good resistant rootstock that's better than the original? (yes I've done hybrid roses to better roots and fruittrees to dwarfing stock)

2/2/2012 12:01:34 AM

Bowdon, GA

What root stock could compete with CC root stock in supporting these plants?

2/2/2012 12:19:52 AM

Glosta

What style of graft would you use? AG root stock has a significant diameter to CC melon. Approach graft is not very beneficial as I made multiple attempts with it last year. I think insertion graft would be best. Do you have the facilities necessary to control humidity and light as this is needed for more advanced grafting styles?

2/2/2012 3:45:34 AM

Ontario

Is this the direction Mother Nature intended us to go?

2/2/2012 8:00:54 AM

The North Coast

Grafting is hugely popular in other parts of the world. I think I remember seeing that 90% of cucurbits and melon on Japan are grafted and like 50% in European farms. The science is there to support grafting. Some of the benefits are the ability to process at cold temperatures, operate in high salinity, an increase in the firmness of fruit, higher production per plant, a systemic acquired resistance (SAR)is induced, some disease resistance and increased vigor. Benefits can range differently between rootstocks used but any or all of those are benefits to most growers.

To answer the question of if the rootstock is more vigorous than the native stump, well truly, only time will tell. What I do know is that there are huge seed companies with very intelligent people scowering the entire Cucurbitae and Citrullus family tree and working to produce the next best rootstock. There is financial reward to do so. A vast majority of the hybrid rootstocks developed are not near the branch tips of the AG or CC. Seeing this one can assume that the best rootstocks for watermelon are not any Citrullus nor are they a rootstock like AG (a pure C.maxima). Common rootstocks used globally for watermelon are either a hybrid gourd or a hybrid Cucurbita maxima × Cucurbita moschata (also,rarely a wild watermelon is used).

2/2/2012 1:08:39 PM

The North Coast

@Bry- everyone needs to stop now with the approach technique and use the hole insertion technique. No special clips and stem size does not matter. What I will do this spring is video the process of how to graft any "vine" onto a couple different rootstocks. I will then make it available for anyone to see. This will save me time in going into every detail here now.

@andy- thanks for the open mind

@TD -maybe the reason nobody has grown a whopper with a grafted CC may be because you have never tried it. I am doing a bunch this spring if you want in on the action let me know. I may have some going over the hill in your direction.

@BPM- unlike modifing genes to get additional plant benefits this uses a simple technology. In doing so the typical farmer gets more output with less input and reduces the need for nasty things like methyl bromide and fertilizers. I would like to believe that grafting helps Mother Nature out.

@ Handyhomegrown- a rootstock is used for the roots (below the graft union) and whatever you are growing above the graft union (in this case melon). If I did the graft and gave it to someone who breaks the record. They broke the record but I would have created the plant.

2/2/2012 1:09:04 PM

Muddy Waters

Wow! sounds interesting,not sure if Im ready to give up a honey spot in the melon cave just yet.Im working on the Kin Cave have ordered my inscect screen.Will be constructing a 60 X 28 green house this early spring,Maybe in 2013 I will try it.I like to keep an open mind.I used to work for a Danish Carpenter in Palo Alto Ca.He always said you stop learning when your dead.I hope I'm not done learning yet!lol Give me a shout next year and I will give it a go.Thanks for info.Hows the Boy Wonder???

2/2/2012 4:54:51 PM

Ontario

I have no issues with grafting for food production if it helps the farmer with a better yield and less chemicals. I just don't think it has a place in giant fruit and vegetable competition. Grow from seed, compete from seed, the way it was intended.

2/2/2012 6:11:18 PM

Muddy Waters

I lean that way myself Bryan,I think it should be natural.

2/2/2012 9:16:48 PM

Western NY

Almost everything we do is unnatural. Fertilizing, pruning, trimming to one per plant, greenhouses, water on timers, sand under the fruit......

I'm curious to see if it would make a difference. I have my doubts, but I'd be interested to see how it stacks up in a side by side comparison.

2/2/2012 10:18:31 PM

The North Coast

I have witnessed that they can make for a more vigorous plant, whether it translates to a bigger melon is yet to be seen. There will be enough of the grafts outhere in 2012 for a good head to head comparision to see if there is true merit.

My loving wife has reminded me that I should stay focused on my goals for 2012. With that being said I would have to defer on all new requests for plants. My grafting goal will be accomplished, get em out there in quality patches and lets see what makes it to the scales.

Good luck to all in 2012, may we all be able to brag about our new PBs to all of our friends and neighbors!

2/3/2012 8:01:20 AM

Bethlehem CT

I was very skeptical at first, about the idea of a melon-squash graft imparting benefits to help us grow bigger melons. I did a quick search on the internet and found this helpful trial done at Purdue. Based on the study, this could be worth giving a shot. I have always liked the idea of plants being on their own roots, but based on what I have read, this direction is certainly worth exploring.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/fruitveg/rep_pres/2008-9/mvt_2008_pdf/Print_Portrait/11_Watermelon_02_Howell.pdf

2/3/2012 10:43:05 AM

Bethlehem CT

Another interesting thing I noticed while googling "Watermelon grafting" is that they have found that grafted melon fruit contain higher levels of certain pesticides in them. This would lead me to believe that these plants are having better uptake from the soil than ordinary melons. Bettter nutrient uptake could be beneficial.

2/3/2012 10:48:40 AM

formerly RGG

I have certainly been sold on the idea of growing grafted Carolina Cross plants after reading this thread and checking out the pdf linked by big moon. I can hardly wait to give some of these grafts a trial. I don't care if it is "natural" or not. If I think it will help me to grow bigger melons, it is something I want to try. Thank you for posting this thread Nathan. I look forward to working with you. This is certain to be an exciting year.

2/3/2012 10:05:04 PM

The North Coast

One of the more unusual results of grafting that is often seen in studies is that a self-grafted plant out performs non grafted plants. That means if you cut your watermelon then graft it back to the same stump it will do better than if you just left it alone.

2/4/2012 8:36:40 AM

formerly RGG

Yes, I noticed that in the study big moon directed us to.

2/4/2012 9:57:41 AM

Bowdon, GA

I'll admit that I'm ingnort about grafting. So don't laugh. This is an extreme example, but say you graft a 255 Mitchell plant to a sugar baby. When you pull it up at the end of the year will the roots look like a 255 or a sugar baby?

2/4/2012 10:12:06 AM

Bowdon, GA

Also noticed in the tests they grew on black plastic which blocks node roots. Wouldn't you still get the soil diesease when the nodes rooted? The other question is how much bigger? Where was their data at? Like I said I'm "ignort" LOL Can't spell either.

2/4/2012 10:26:09 AM

formerly RGG

Jake, did you go to the site big moon pointed out ? I can tell you the roots from a sugar baby would still be sugar baby roots roots. And the study pointed out that a melon plant will have increased hardiness even if it cut and grafted back to itself. There is some kind of good response from plants when they are challenged in that manner. The gourd roots that Nathan grafts onto grow well in cooler weather. So I am thinking that a melon grown on roots from one of these gourds will have a big early season advantage or would be most excellent for the northern or Rocky Mountains grower or just anywhere that you are liable to run into cool nights. And I think that is true for most of us due to the season being so long for these giants. I would love to learn how to make these grafts myself.

2/4/2012 10:44:52 AM

formerly RGG

If you are interested in learning more about doing it yourself please check out this video I found:

http://cals.arizona.edu/grafting/content/one-cotyledon-method-cucurbitsvideo

2/4/2012 11:55:07 AM

Bethlehem CT

Jake, that is a good point about rooting at the nodes. Those roots would lack the disease resistance of the grafted rootstock.

2/4/2012 2:31:08 PM

formerly RGG

I hadn't considered that. I think the bulk of the roots come from the stump and I would not consider node rooting a deal breaker.

2/4/2012 3:42:23 PM

The North Coast

Yes TD that is one of the best videos. I choose to not cut the roots off of the rootstock. I feel that if the stump is cut from the roots it may lead to something undesirable. Other hole insertion techniques leave the roots intact on the rootstock.

I will post a bit more casual but indepth presentation of how to graft CC to a chosen roostock. It will not be finished until after this spring. I am confident that anyone can graft melons using the hole insertion technique. It takes all essential tools and materials ($20), you will need a way to control the healing environment as recomended, some good rootstock, and finally you need the do the computer reseach to understand the technique. With just a little experience you will be a pro.

Notes: AG is difficult to graft to because it is SO big. If you desire such an experiment you will have to pay attention to that. Other rootstocks are much more friendly.

If anyone needs some clarification on what they have learned I would like to answer them here and not by email. This way everyone is informed and hopefully limit duplicate questions. (excluding the folks that I am working with this year. you guys please still just email me)

2/4/2012 4:18:58 PM

The North Coast

As for the black plastic and the disease control- efficient disease control is highly advantageous if you are growing acres of melons. In most competitive patches the diseases covered by the rootstock are controlled by redundant means. Meaning, the disease resistance is the least important benefit of grafting for the well financed competitive garden. Let the nodes root if you wish.

2/4/2012 4:29:13 PM

Bethlehem CT

Bat Cave, What are you using for a root stock and where do you get the seeds from?

2/4/2012 8:11:49 PM

The North Coast

C. ficifolia is sold from Johnnys seed. Small packets are available and not too expensive.

and

Shintosa Camelforce is provided by Nunhems. Look up contact info off the web. Smallest seed package is 1000 seed for $35 + shipping. I had to do a bit of calling around but I finally found a distributor for Nunhems who could order it. Best to call Nunhems customer service and ask for someone who carries it.

2/4/2012 8:37:42 PM

Bethlehem CT

Thanks for the info bat cave

2/5/2012 11:04:31 PM

Hamilton Nj

i used maxifort from jonnys last year for a mater graft,none took grower error,lol but had bad germ rate also i had 5 pop out of 15,but it was my first try maybe grafting melons will take better?? pizza

2/6/2012 10:09:22 PM

The North Coast

@ pizzapete Ya, those tomatoe roostocks have terrible germination and grew for me terribly under the same lights that the tomato seedlings were thriving under. Melons and cucumbers are much easier in a lot of respects. If you like cukes do a couple of those too...nice plants.

2/7/2012 7:34:12 AM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

Park Seed sent me an email today including several kinds of grafted tomatoes... an example of one:

http://parkseed.com/grafted-tomato-brandywine/p/87771-PK-3/

and debating getting a pack ($24.95/3 plants) and seeing if the rootstock will sucker or shoot and soft tissue propagate that for stock....

(an FYI update, I posted in tomato board about it too)

2/8/2012 8:27:29 PM

Arden, NC

Here's an abstract on grafted watermelons

Stand Establishment and Water Productivity
of Grafted Watermelons: Effects of Planting
Density and Deficit Irrigation
John L. Jifon*
Texas A&M University, Weslaco, TX; jljifon@ag.tamu.
edu
Daniel I. Leskovar
Texas A&M University, Uvalde, TX; d-leskovar@tamu.edu
Kevin M. Crosby
Texas A&M University, College Station, TX; kcrosby@
ag.tamu.edu
Juan Enciso
Texas A&M University, Weslaco, TX; j-enciso@ag.tamu.
edu
The effects of deficit irrigation and plant population density on stand establishment and water productivity of grafted watermelons(Citrullus lanatus; cv Tri-X 313) were investigated. Replicated plots of grafted and non-grafted watermelons were established on a sandy soil with a known history of soil-borne diseases. Seedlings were planted at four densities by varying in-row spacing (0.46, 0.91, 1.4, and 1.8 m), and were subjected to two irrigation regimes (100% and 75% replacement of crop evapotranspiration, ETc). Stand establishment, estimated as percent survival and vine elongation rates was significantly higher in grafted plants compared to non-grafted plants. Leaf physiological parameters including leaf water potential (Ψl),
stomatal conductance, transpiration, and photosynthesis were
generally high in grafted than in non-grafted plants, and declined with deficit irrigation, but generally increased with plant population density. Fruit yields were also significantly higher in grafted plants subjected to 100 ETc than those subjected to 75% ETc.

2/8/2012 10:13:43 PM

Arden, NC

Average marketable fruit yields increased with plant density at ~3.5‰ plant density. Average number of fruits per plant declined with increasing plant density; however, average fruit size did not differ significantly among treatments. Water productivity (tons/acre-inch) of grafted plants was ~23% higher
than that of non-grafted plants and increased significantly with plant density at about ~0.43‰ plant density, but did not differ between irrigation regimes. The data suggest that increased planting density can increase net returns with the same amount of irrigation input. Alternatively, the planting density of grafted plants can be decreased without significantly affecting overall productivity.

2/8/2012 10:13:57 PM

formerly RGG

Thanks Suzie. That sounds like a fairly positive article.I think at the very worst, grafted plants will be as good as non grafted; and, at best, I think they will be significantly better. I am certainly looking forward to giving them a try this year. How about you Suzie ? You seem interested.

2/8/2012 10:31:45 PM

The North Coast

Hello Roookiesmom1, I was getting concerned about you. Hope all is well and I am figuring you in to this years effort if you'd like. The offer still extends to our growing neighbors to the south too.

Also, do you plan to use Biota max and if so do you have what you need? I have a great discount (50%) to use when the years purchace is made.

2/9/2012 8:23:06 AM

Manchester, TN

I'm having trouble finding the conditions I will need in healing chamber. I find it needs to be low light, high humidity, but not finding anything specific as to temp., or what ideal humidity is.


Thanks,

2/9/2012 8:43:28 AM

The North Coast

I do all my preseason growing under a 4 bulb fixture that is 4 feet long. This gets me to about 83-85 degrees under the bulbs. My hospital consists of a tall dome for my standard tray. I mist the dome and lightly mist at the plants. Try to avoid rain forest like conditions. You want it moist enough to keep the scions from wilting badly but too much moisture will enduce the scion to air root (sprout roots to find the moisture). It is better to be slightly too dry and if you get too much wilting then mist a bit more they will recover. As for light requirements, I place a dark towel over my tall dome that is under the lights. Do that for one week.

You will see that some grafts wilt and die right away, some will never wilt and do fine all the way. Some will wilt a bit early then eventually start looking better. It is those that have the highest likelyhood of interior rooting. A good graft will never wilt, will have good interior contact and heal on schedule. Use only those, cut the suspect grafts open to examine what is going on. You will soon get the feel.

Make sure the rootstock soil is close to dry during the graft and healing time. Too much moisture in the soil will cause a hydraulic pressure at the graft union...not good. You dont want to give the plant any reason to do anything for one week. Low light, low soil moisture, just moderate humidity and 85 degrees. Good luck

2/9/2012 9:49:31 AM

formerly RGG

Nathan, will you please let me know who I can purchase a supply of Shintosa Camelforce from. I have looked around some but have been striking out so far. I want rootstock seeds so that I can play around with grafting this year.Then next year I hope to be able to do my own grafts.

2/9/2012 8:32:32 PM

The North Coast

Champion seed is a vast distributor of other company's seed, including Nunhems for Shintosa Camelforce.

http://www.championseed.com/index.php?/site/producers

You will need to look up your local sales rep to make any orders.

The gourd rootstock is named Triumph at Johnnys

2/9/2012 9:02:33 PM

formerly RGG

You are the man Nathan. Thank you. I think my minimum order will be 1000 seeds so if anyone wants to share some of these, I will have a lot lore than I can use.

2/9/2012 9:05:43 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

If you look in my 2012 diary, I showed how to turn 2 liter non-straight soda bottles into individual cloches for sticking cuttings and 'just after air layer transplant' stuff. That way if conditions aren't right in one, the next one may be okay and take...

I was doing a version of this a few years ago with the tomato sucker sticks (clonex and into soil) and my air layers (after seeing roots and severing and transplanting into pot). I also used them for propagating bouganvilla and got over half of them to take. (clonex and stick)

Let me know, TD. Thanks.

2/10/2012 12:53:30 AM

Hamilton Nj

batcave, have u seen the superglue video onn grafting,lol,it looks pretty neat!!! pizza

2/11/2012 10:05:34 AM

formerly RGG

Pete, I think it's kind of neat the way they brush on the super glue gel with a fingernail painting brush. Nice video,thanks.

2/11/2012 11:16:19 AM

The North Coast

Hey folks, I have gotten a few questions posted to me and I will give it my best to clear them up.

As you get ready to graft you will need to know a few things and have a few things ready:

The best razors are single edge and as thin as possible. These include the old fashioned razors used in the old school changable, disposable razors. Unless you are kinda up there in age you may never of needed to use that kind of razor. I was able to find these replacement blades at an old drug store that still carried them. Other acceptable razors would include scalples. Just remember thin, single edge and honed sharp is best.

Sanitize your blades as needed...which may be never.

Your insertion tool needs to emulate the scion. This means just a skosh bigger than the stem diameter of the scion(like an 1/8" dowel or the like) and shaped to a tip that is close to the same angle as the cuts on the scion. Which is about 60 degrees. Remember, tool looks like the eventual scion.

Pay attention to the techniques on the youtube videos. You will note that none of the techniques are alike. This means there is flexibility in the technique but all will result in the same product.

2/11/2012 9:17:15 PM

The North Coast

I do not cut the rootstock off the roots. This is done to help reduce hydraulic pressure on the graft union as it heals. Those rootstocks have no roots and cannot push much water up the stem, this helps the healing. I like to keep the roots and to only use rootstocks that are starving for water...like totally close to wilting is good. Then during the healing process do not make the soil wet for the rootstock, just a bit humid like not too wet at all. Use very little water on the rootstock while healing. I grow my rootsocks in a standard flat tray with no more than one inch of soil. I plant like 40 or so in there. I hold the water to get them thirsty, then rip (yes rip) them out one at a time to conduct the surgery (then transplant). If you are into better ways I may suggest you start your rootstock seeds in peat pots, rock wool cubes or similar self contained pods. This makes the process easier and cleaner. Note, I totally disreguarded this whole rule of thirst before and things turned out good...but it is recomended.

You will also need to have a controlled germination means. If you grow CC you already know what is needed to get them to germinate. You need to determine the exact amount of time until the rootstock and the scion reach maturity, they will be different. Maturity of the scion is when the first true leaf is about the size of a grain of rice, rootstock usually is at first leaf stage (on a leaf stem too). This tells you how early you need to plant one to have them both be ready at the same time...or close, there is a good bit of flexibily. Remember, time them out and adjust planting as needed.

2/11/2012 9:18:54 PM

The North Coast

Your healing chamber needs to be simple and controlled. A greenhouse is not going to help you. You will need 80-85 degrees for one week with no fluxuations. I like to use an area in my house (staying mostly the same temp). I personally use an area under my florescent lights, they provide heat. I then modify the environment to get the temperature I need, maybe enclosing the light in a towel to increase the temp or whatever else may be needed. A digital thermometer is a must. I run the lights 24 hours a day and record the temps in my tall healing dome (this is needed, standard tray + tall dome). Once I find out what is needed to get my hospital to about 85 I know I am good. Remember, controlled 85 degree environment.


Lighting on the healing grafts needs to be just enough to keep them from going into absolute shock. I obtain this under my florescent lighting and inside of my tall healing dome by just covering the dome with a dark towel. Maybe 20% of the light makes it through. You really just want the grafts to heal, not respire, not photosynthesize, just sit there and heal.

Misting of the grafts is needed but a rain forest condition inside of your hospital is not good. You will need just enough mist to keep the scions from wilting. Too much will enduce air rooting of the scion and possible internal rooting. If more is needed you can mist again with no ill effects on the operation. If any air roots form you can use your razor to zip them off, but it is not ideal. At best load up with mist initially then only add it if it starts to look bad in there.

Superglue is not good. I did that and what happens is that the glue makes a sealed and continuous collar around the stem. As the stem grows the collar does not and starts to cut in. The way I saw it was that it was not needed and just a fad idea or something.

2/11/2012 9:20:18 PM

The North Coast

I am confident that if any of you folks took the time to study the youtube videos, prepared the healing environment to what is needed and got the tools ready that you would be able to get a 50-75% success rate. I have never met any of you but just by being here gives you more than enough quaifications to take this on. Without a doubt all of you can do this if you follow the directions. You will see how easy it is and if you have any questions after you did your homework, just ask.

Those folks above the Mason Dixon line should totally look up Triumph (C. Ficifilia) from Johnnys Seed. That is one wild, untamed by man, cold loving rootstock.

One last thing, focus on the cutting technique at Arizona and tool insertion angle...that is the key, good stuff.

Get r' done and let me know what you all need to know.

2/11/2012 9:20:33 PM

formerly RGG

Nathan, what do you mean by "cutting technique at Arizona" ? So you are using the hole insertion method, is that correct ?
What do you think of the single cotyledon method ? Thanks for your help. I believe the C. Ficifilia will also be excellent for southern growers who want to get a early start. I mean Carolina Cross do not like to grow here until the soil is very warm and the gourd rootstock should be capable of changing that.

2/11/2012 10:35:55 PM

formerly RGG

Oh OK, I figured out you are talking about the You Tube grafting video from the University of Arizona. Also, what do you think about tube grafting ?

2/11/2012 11:01:07 PM

Hamilton Nj

wow, thats alot of info,lol, i definetly got mine too wet last year and im building a chamber right now ,so i take it the smaller the plant the easier it is to graft????
larger plants dont graft as easy or take as well??? thanks pizza

2/11/2012 11:35:19 PM

The North Coast

@PP Yes the smaller the better. Both plants will be complete infants with low needs for water. This helps out.

@TD I tube graft tomatoes but I am not sure about melon. I like the hole insertion method because it needs no clips and can use plants with different stem diameters. I felt it was best and easiest. Its biggest draw back is the potential for interior rooting.

Some of the videos show an insertion angle that is risky (Japan). They show nearly a straight angle into the stem. This increases rooting potential due to the scions proximity to the hollow center of the rootstock. I am sure that they get the results they are looking for but I like the Arizona way of scion stem cutting and insertion angle.

Take a rootstock and cut it in half vertically starting at the ground level and running the razor up the stem. Notice the part of the stem that is between the feeder leaves. This solid area is the insertion zone for the scion. Depending on the rootstock used you may notice that below this solid area is the "stem tube". Avoid any insertion angle that puts the scion into the tube.

2/12/2012 8:01:54 AM

The North Coast

@TD There are a good number of ways to graft. If I tried a new method it would be the cotyledon devoid technique. It is quite similar to tube grafting of tomatoes. The rootstock and scion is cut below the cotyledons at nearly identical angles then placed together and held with a cut open tube. (like aquarium tubing cut to about 3/4" then slit open) As with most other techniques you will need matching stems diameters and this makes it difficult. The rootstock stems are huge while the CC stems are quite small.

2/12/2012 8:18:22 AM

Bethlehem CT

Thanks Nate, that is good information to have. I read somewhere that another good rootstock to use for cool or wet growing conditions are the Langenaria type gourds. Ex; birdhouse, apple gourds, there are many varieties.

2/12/2012 9:05:49 AM

formerly RGG

You are the man Nate. You have stirred up a lot of excitement among those of us who see the potential in grafting some good genetics onto a superior rootstock. Hey Mark, I'll bet you another dollar that a melon from a grafted plant at least makes it into the top five melons grown this year. lol

2/12/2012 9:18:10 AM

formerly RGG

Nate, I am wondering if the soil requirements are any different for a Shintosa Camelforce or a C Ficifilia than for a Carolina Cross. I am almost certain they will grow better in cool soil and will be more vigorous and disease resistant. But are the nutrition requirements different ? When I get my soil test done, do I need recommendations for growing a giant watermelon or a squash or a true pumpkin or for a gourd ? I know the soil requirements for these plants are similar; but I do not believe they are exactly the same. Do you think I should treat the roots like I am growing a Atlantic Giant ?

2/12/2012 10:50:46 AM

Hamilton Nj

can the shintosa camelforce be used for tomatos also??? thanks pizza

2/12/2012 1:39:33 PM

formerly RGG

Sorry Pete, tomatoes are not in the cucurbit family and are incompatible. A cucurbit can only be grafted to another cucurbit. I am not even sure if all cucurbits are compatible with one another. You will need another tomato or possibly a potato to graft your tomatoes onto or maybe something else in the solanaceae (nightshade) family.

2/12/2012 3:08:00 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

Pete, over in tomatoes, there is someone ordering some tomato graft rootstock seeds, drop them an email if you're interested.

2/12/2012 3:27:18 PM

The North Coast

@TD you bring up a good point about how to focus the feeding of the plant. I would have to lean to feeding what is needed for a melon.

@big moon Yes there is really encouraging info out there about the langenaria type rootstocks. They could be better in some circumstances. The beauty of gourds be it a langenaria or a cucurbitae is that they are wild. Not too much breeding has taken place to ween it away from its wild and well adapted liniage. Quite similar to a wild crab apple or a wild grape being used to grow the best cultivars. CC has been bred so heavily on the traits of weight (and other melons bred for sweetness, small size and such) that the plant is much more delicate than the original watermelon parents that it was derived from. Thus is the beauty of the grafting concept in that it keeps the wild roots with a heavily bred cultivar on top. I read that C. ficifolia is one of the oldest cultivars on the planet. Originally used as food for primative people. Today it is still very wild and improved by modern breeding. Also very incouraging are the wild melon rootstocks, someone needs to give those a go too.

It will be real safe to say that if the CT state record is 161 pounds that using a more adapted rootstock will rewrite the record books up north. I will reluctantly also say that it could let you yankees get the best of us southern boys. The low soil temperature has been keeping you out of the running with melons. If that is no longer a factor and with all the extra sun that you get...well I may need to apologize to south.

@pizzapete No they cant be used for a tomato but they can give added benefits to cantelope, zucchini, cucumbers, and other family members. A good one to stew on is if a rootstock could improve a long gourd (I have my doubts)? On a similar subject, if a more adapted rootstock could have benefits for an AG? I have my own feelings on this one but I dont want to be struck down by the AG gods.

2/12/2012 3:32:36 PM

Alaska

Guinness will not accept any GMO's for world record consideration. So I'm wondering if a grafted plant would only be allowed to compete within it's class, lets call it grafted plant class. You are creating something that doesn't exists naturally in nature. It's not one plant from one seed it has been altered.

2/12/2012 3:59:40 PM

Ontario

Yep Scott...I've been pretty quite here one this one for awhile now... but I totally agree with you. I'm thinking for competition fruits if you are grafting then you should be in a separate category... like Squelons or Melourds or whatever imaginative whacky mad scientist ideas you come up with.

2/12/2012 6:23:32 PM

formerly RGG

But would that not require everyone's vines to be inspected ?
Otherwise everyone would be on the honor system and you know that would just not work.

2/12/2012 7:08:19 PM

Bethlehem CT

I don't know. Lets see what kind of advantage, (if any) growing grafted plants brings. Grafting is not something new it has been done for thousands of years. Nearly all of our apple, peach, pear, grape, rose, plum etc are grown on grafted rootstock.

2/12/2012 9:37:15 PM

formerly RGG

A grower could even grow a decoy patch if he wanted to.Big moon has a good point and I am very sure grafts will always be allowed because there is just no way to police them. And I don't see what the worry is. This is new stuff for giant watermelon growers. We may fall on our faces or only be able to grow regular size giants.lol Even if a record was grown on a graft, there is no way of determining that the melon would have been any less if it had been grown on normal rootstock. I think you may as well embrace this new growing method because if it works well,then it is here to stay.

2/12/2012 10:00:58 PM

Alaska

Here's what I found. It's being done for a disease problem. If you don't have that then what is the point?

Fusarium fungi live in the soil and attack plants at all stages of growth. If growers continually plant watermelons in the same soil, eventually they’ll wind up with a disease problem called Fusarium wilt. Until now, U.S. watermelon growers have dealt with Fusarium-infested soil in three ways: rotate the fields, treat with methyl bromide to kill the fungus, or grow resistant cultivars.

The first two solutions are becoming less workable; land is becoming less avail able for rotations, and methyl bromide is being discontinued due to environmental concerns. Watermelon cultivars are available with varying resistance to only two races of Fusarium, but grafted watermelons have resistance to all three races—and have the added benefit of firmness.

2/12/2012 10:52:07 PM

Corryton, TN

If a grafting method is being used to win competitions or for financial purposes (land constraints or commercial growing), I have no problems with it. My concerns are, would this slow down the genetic advancement toward 400 and beyond. If someone grows a 300 pounder this year on a plant that could not do it on its own what have we gained. That seed will be planted by many only to pass on average genetics to future generations. I personally want seeds from the top melon in someones patch that has grown several that year under the same condition. Being concerned if the big melon had the best root stock seed is not what I want to think about. And yes, unless the rootstocks are clones there will be differences in the potential of the stock seeds. My goal is to produce seeds that an average Joe can grow to 300 pounds with a little effort while the HH's are targeting 400.

2/13/2012 6:46:12 AM

Alaska

That's why Guinness doesn't allow GMO's or variations thereof. Yes it would be hard to police but the goal here is a level playing field. I agree with brotherdave completely when it comes to a seeds worth if a WR is grown on a grafted root stock. I think in the end it's just a pipe dream that's not gonna pan out, IMHO of course.

2/13/2012 1:42:54 PM

The North Coast

Here are a couple descriptions worded by the manufacturer:

Strong Tosa is an interspecific squash hybrid type for grafting watermelon and melon. It has a deep root system that performs best under hot and dry conditions, and offers good performance under soil disease pressure. This root stock produces a very strong, vigorous plant that can be 50% larger than non-grafted plants. Its fruit can also be larger with darker red flesh and greater flesh firmness.

&

Emphasis is a lagenaria-type root stock for grafting seedless watermelon. It has a relatively shallow root system that does best under cold/cool and wet growing conditions and also does well in heavier soils. It does not perform well under hot and dry conditions. This root stock has demonstrated good performance under soil disease pressure, and offers intermediate resistance to fusarium wilt. The grafted plants have good fruit setting ability and can be 20% larger with darker red flesh and a larger fruit size than non-grafted plants.

If your goal is size then these plant descriptions make your eyes pop out of your head. This whole topic was inevitable, if not this year then soon enough. Pandora's box has been opened...

2/13/2012 5:23:43 PM

Corryton, TN

What the manufacturer's description doesn't tell us is:
Root-knot nematode infection was severe in ‘Emphasis’ bottlegourd (L. siceraria) (86% root system galled) and ‘Strong Tosa’ (Fig. 1) squash hybrid (C. moschata x C. maxima) (100% galled) rootstocks (Table 1)

Taken from:National Watermelon Association Research Project 2009

2/13/2012 6:16:04 PM

Corryton, TN

This may not be an issue for everyone but it can be for some of us.

2/13/2012 6:25:35 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

I believe in Nema-Gone marigolds, planted with crops that may need nematode protection. They are genetically selected to have the most 'repel nematodes' of all the french variety marigolds out there. They are not the prettiest, giving a medium sized kind of leggy marigold plant with a small yellow single petal marigold flower, but they do make my tomatoes happier. Perhaps as we need to continue to fight the fight; looking more towards companion plantings as well?

2/14/2012 1:09:13 AM

Muddy Waters

I like it all natural to Bryan,I have never been attracted to the silicone sisters.I like my melons natural.I think these should have there own category also.

2/14/2012 7:12:59 AM

formerly RGG

I think many of you fellow growers would be quite surprised to know that there are some GWG growers who have not posted at all on this thread but are embracing this proven growing method and have arranged to receive grafted plants from Nathan. And you may never know who these growers are.

2/14/2012 8:17:39 AM

Corryton, TN

No surprise here. Most everyone wants to grow the next WR. If this method works, will it mean that we get stuck around 300 lbs due to slow genetic progress or will it have no slowing effect? I'm not against ANYONE using it. Just be open about it when someone asks which, if any, melons/seeds were produced that way.

2/14/2012 9:23:05 AM

Grimsley,TN

If the new record happens this way it should have an asterisk by it. I am like Dave. It wouldn't be any genetics that I would want to use. I am fine with anyone using it. I think its really neat. It should just be made known and have its own category.No big deal. Ask yourself whether you would want genetics from a 300# grafted plant or a 300# watermelon plant.

2/14/2012 10:16:09 AM

Ontario

Wow!! Really TD?? GWG members not letting us know they are going to grow grafted plants and eneter fruit in competition without telling anyone??? This amounts to total dishonesty!! What have we got left if we take that away?? I depened on honesty in growers, otherwise this hobby would not be worth it. So now you're telling me if someone grows a large melon in the top 5 or 10 and does not let anyone know it came from a grafted plant, then that means we cannot trust the GWG seed auctions next year. If this is the case then I for one will not support buying seeds because I would not be able to trust they came from seed only!!! This is not good for the GWG in my view!! That's really too bad. I will stick to growing from seed and keep my genetics they way they should be. If you want to grow fruit for markets or your living then I agree this could be an awesome way to help achieve those goals, but as I stated earlier....there is no room for this grafting in competitions unless you have a seperare category and you have honest people!!

2/14/2012 12:44:53 PM

Alaska

I emailed Guinness and asked them what they thought about grafted watermelons. Here is some of what they had to say.
Thank you for contacting Guinness World Records. There are different options when you apply to set or break a record, but in most circumstances you must submit an application through our website www.guinnessworldrecords.com in order to receive the guidelines and rules from the records management team.
Once we've received your application, it will be reviewed by one of our specialist researchers within 4-6 weeks. If it is accepted as a new category or if you intend to break an existing record, we'll contact you by e-mail with the corresponding rules and regulations that must strictly be adhered to. If we reject your idea, we'll reply to you detailing why it is not acceptable.
So IMHO someone needs to apply and see if Guinness will accept grafted watermelons. If not accepted then someone will have saved all of us a great deal of time and money.

2/14/2012 1:08:24 PM

Ontario

Excellent Scott!! Breaking the world record does not interest me as much at the moment as just breaking the Canadian record. When I do...I will be confident I achieved it by planting a single seed and nurturing the plant to produce a huge watermelon.

Another concern I have with the GWG and this statement made by TD regarding silent members embracing this, is the prize structure they have offered for top 20. Are they allowing this practice of grafted watermelon plants to compete for this prize money?? The playing field is becoming very unlevel in my view.... not that anything has been proven if this will produce a larger melon...but at some point someone from the GWG should step in and clear this up. It's tough enough to compete with the weather in the South...now you want growers like me who believe in growing from seed to compete with "the selected few" and this grafting practice as well??

GWG what have you to say on this subject??

2/14/2012 4:27:22 PM

Linden, Mi.,

My 2c
Don't let it happen !

Don't we have enough, just learning to grow the big ones, with out trying to play GOD ?

2/14/2012 5:47:12 PM

Ontario

Nicely said....

2/14/2012 7:07:16 PM

Ontario

Pretty quiet!!

You may have opened Pandora's Box BC N8...but the Dreamer opened a big ol Can 'O' Worms....

2/14/2012 7:09:19 PM

Ontario

This is wrong for the GWG and this hobby on so many levels!!

2/14/2012 7:35:07 PM

Muddy Waters

Hello Is there anybody in there GWG??lol

2/14/2012 7:45:15 PM

Western NY

I really don't think this is going to be an issue. I would be amazed if the grafted plants outperform a natural one in the type of situation we're putting them in, but I honestly can't wait to see what happens. Just the mad scientist in me, I guess.

2/14/2012 7:52:17 PM

Bowdon, GA

I still don't see the benefit, like Spudley said sure maybe it helps with diesease, but how is the smaller rootstock going to help them grow bigger? Put it in simple terms I'm a Geologist not a biologist.

2/14/2012 8:12:51 PM

Muddy Waters

I also see they do better in the cold climates,Ive never had disease issues in the north on melons.only the kins have issues.

2/14/2012 8:44:52 PM

Bethlehem CT

I don't think this is going to really be groundbreaking, someone may have even tried it already, seeing as they have been grafting melons in asia for many decades. Let's relax and let's see what plays out.
As it is with people, surgery always comes with risks. It will have advantages and disadvantages.

2/14/2012 9:02:57 PM

Muddy Waters

This debate is good & needs to be dicussed.The GWG can ignore this post if they choose.That will will mean grafting will be allowed at the weigh-offs.If there is no rule against it.Then its allowed.I dont know if Chris has seen this post or not as he having computer issues right now.I'm old school I dont like this kinda stuff.I feel if you graft to another root stock its no longer a Carolina cross.It would be a Graftolina cross.If voting as a Club I would vote no.We should have a group conscience or a Committee vote here.E-Mail your GWG rep folks if you think this is worthy issue.

2/15/2012 7:53:33 AM

Muddy Waters

Im still waiting to have rule #1 defined must cared for by member?? I would like to see this defined,what percentage of care is needed to be cared for by member??daily? weekly????

2/15/2012 8:02:45 AM

SW Ohio

This was discussed a little bit last year and the same concerns came up. Anyone remember Dr Frankenmelon?

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=30&p=391678

2/15/2012 10:13:50 AM

that way <<<<<<

So then only Carolina Cross is allowed in a weighoff competition?

2/15/2012 3:49:57 PM

Muddy Waters

No! Were probably making to big a deal out of this grafting thing.It is nothing new,I think many will try this in the future.The GPC has to make a ruling against it for the GWG to boycott it.The GWG follows there rules for the most part.This is just what I think will happen not Gospel!!

2/15/2012 9:55:33 PM

Ontario

Ahhhh yes....the backdoor emails flying back and forth....and the sweep it under the rug approach!! That's fine, this topic may be quiet for the moment...but it most certainly not dead!!

I am quite surprised none of the GWG executive has spoken on this topic.... which to me implies they may be part of the "select few" and could be some of ones "embracing" this!!

So Mark what you are saying is.... the GWG is a follower and not a leader... interesting!!

I am not sure if this will or will not help grow a bigger watermelon. I would just like clarity from the GWG on the rules. If Guinness does not accept this melon you may happen to grow on this grafted plant, then why would the GWG allow this?? Sounds like you want to be a follower...so follow Guinness!!

2/16/2012 8:13:25 AM

formerly RGG

Fellow growers, we may as well embrace this old and well proven technology. 80% of the watermelons grown in China are from grafted plats. They even have robot-like grafting machines. If the rules were changed, you know that some would still cheat, giving them an unfair advantage. Keeping it legal is just a way to keep the playing field level. I mean, if you think a ban could be enforced then please explain to me how you would go about doing this. Just my thoughts.

2/16/2012 8:26:39 AM

Muddy Waters

Bryan,They say choose your battles,I dont feel at this point,this is where I want to spend my energy.I learned a lot in the past few months.I will win the War,not all the battles.I can see both sides of this which is rare for me.So I respect your passion on this,but I will do what the guy at Wendys told me.Step aside sir Please step aside.lol

2/16/2012 9:21:59 AM

Ontario

Grafting for food production to help reduce use of pesticides is great!! I would be up front and let people know I was growing a grafted plant, but that's me. I really didn't see this as a battle, just asking some questions. Seeing no answers is answer enough!! I know what I believe in and what I want to accomplish and I will concentrate on that!! I wish you all the best of luck in your patches this year!!

2/16/2012 9:36:16 AM

Corryton, TN

I don't think embracing the method is the issue, that's personal. The tecnology is proven but the results under our growing conditions and with our goals, not yet.

We have to ask ourselves, how do we want to compete? One class or a multitude of classes. Do we rely on a grower's word when the shiney trophy is at stake or do we reqire patch inspections prior? We can all go on and on with questions.

I for one hope the e-mails and phone calls are "flying" back and forth between the leaders of both groups. Trying to come up with the right decisions takes time and a lot of discussion. Rarely does a decision of this size made in haste work out well. I would expect any decision to be ammended in the future also. I also know these leaders have lives outside of this message board. Let's give them the time THEY need.

2/16/2012 10:07:31 AM

sevierville, Tn

We the GWG have been discussing this issue. We will be addressing it after talking with the GPC since we use their rules & weighoff sites.

(Personal comments) I have been with limited computer access so my lack of comments is because of that, not due to ignoring the topic. I think the idea is of great interest & merit. The use of grafted plants would i feel answer the question...What is the limit in growing big melons. Is it the plant or is it the genetics that are the limit. If its genetic, then the melon will not be any bigger then the current size. If its the plant, then they could be bigger. it may make no difference other then give some disease resistance to the plant. Who knows.... If grafted plants/melons are grown, there should be no reason to not say that the melon was from a grafted plant. The plant & seeds would still have merit to grow... i mean pumpkins growers take into consideration such things as tendency to split, heat stress, disease issues. The plant just has a different root, everything else is still the same.
These are just some things to consider....just like we use products to stimulate root growth, plant growth, prune, train etc.
p.s. Yes i will try a grafted plant if space allows, just like i grew a hydroponic melon to 177 lbs last year.

2/16/2012 3:37:21 PM

Alaska

I'm not growing any watermelons this year. So hows about someone that is file a claim with Guinness and see what they come back with. I'm sure no one that's serious about breaking the record will want to grow a WR melon on a grafted plant if Guinness won't accept it. IMHO Scott.

2/16/2012 4:49:32 PM

Muddy Waters

I dont think a bigger root zone will do much I dont think we have harnessed the power in the root zone we have now.I really dont think the melons will take any faster growth,you will blow them up.

2/16/2012 5:01:00 PM

The North Coast

IMHO Scott let me first say that you are a great grower of all things, you are amazing. However this is all about what a person can do to grow the biggest melon ever. I obsess about it as you may be familiar with. The stated rules are clear in this competition. The way I see them is that it is full throtle and wide open outside of injecting liquid lead into the melon and that is the beauty of it. I can agree that the known genetic output of a specific CC will get unclear but we are not plant breeders per say but giant melon growers. I fully believe that the first person to successfully grow a hydroponic melon will do much better than a person growing a grafted melon. In fact there will be new techniques introduced in the future that will take things to a new higher level. We must come to grips with this fact, for me and many others it is the new horizon.

If the GWG wants to be ahead of the game (or any other organization for that matter) I would recomend a ruling or at least a look into forchlorfenuron. It will be only a short time until a totally obsessed grower works out a distribution deal with a foreign distributor. Talk about blowing giant melon growers minds...

2/16/2012 5:15:15 PM

Corryton, TN

I can't wait for the day when I blow one up!

2/16/2012 7:00:34 PM

Western NY

Nate - the topic of FCF came up last year. I know one guy who posted that it was used, but I don't think anything came of it. There is a domestic supply of it i believe.

2/16/2012 7:53:42 PM

The North Coast

Lets hope that something like that is quickly disproven...that's nasty.

2/16/2012 8:16:39 PM

formerly RGG

I want some.

2/16/2012 8:18:38 PM

Muddy Waters

When you grow a world record with one then you will win me over till then catch me if you can!!lol

2/16/2012 8:22:51 PM

formerly RGG

I mean to say I want some Forchlorfenuron.I want to see a Carolina Cross split open from growing too fast. lol

2/16/2012 9:41:58 PM

formerly RGG

I found this link for purchasing forchlorfenuron : http://www.ebiochem.com/Product/index/id/16792
It is $494/ Kilo plus shipping. Anyone want to go in on some ?

2/16/2012 11:01:33 PM

Muddy Waters

Ive got some M-80s if you like I will come by this August make your dreams come true fellas.lol

2/17/2012 7:28:18 AM

formerly RGG

Sorry Mark. What we want to see is melons splitting open from rapid growth. Thought we were clear on that. lol Anyone who is interested please email me.

2/17/2012 7:46:31 AM

Ut

My 2 cents:

If we can't regulate it then we should accept it so that people will let us know if they grafted, and we can learn from it together. Yes, Ideally everyone would be honest even if grafted plants were not accepted, but I think everyone knows that won't happen. So saying no to grafting is really just saying "don't tell us that you grafted," and then we'll never know what is going on with the genetics or how this grafting is working out. I really believe it's all about showing up to the weigh-off with the biggest watermelon. Otherwise it's inviting secrecy and lies. Patch inspections? Impractical. Could an inspector dig up and recognize a graft? What about growers in remote areas where there is no "melon-sheriff" to come ransack the patch? Where else would you draw lines and impose restrictions?

I am not planning on grafting this year because I have too many other things to work out with my growing, but I think it's great that some are.

I'm not surprised that people are bothered by it, but I think there is no other option than to allow others to grow how they want.

A few years ago everyone in the photography world was very bothered by photoshop, but now it's just a part of life and accepted in competitions and in school and everywhere else. Grafting is just a tool like seaweed, pesticides, and all the other wild stuff we throw at our plants. There was nothing natural about growing a melon once we passed the 50 pound mark long long ago. If you resist grafting or anything else I think you will prevent hearing about it more than you will prevent it from happening. There are too many people out there who want to see what is possible... and ANYTHING is possible. Grow 'em big, Kyle

2/17/2012 6:45:46 PM

formerly RGG

Amen Kyle. You stated your opinion very well. It would be difficult to disagree with what you had to say.

2/17/2012 7:13:44 PM

Muddy Waters

Yes very good point,Kyle I was thinking the same thing.Just like entering 2 melons some cheat & do this,Im hoping this will stop.I ask the GWG to define rule#1 as 75% of care should be by member who enters at weigh-off.I could of had a spot for my daughter in the Top 10 as could Todd & others could have to.This is very difficult to enforce,so please folks if you enter your child,make sure they pull the weeds water the plant most of the time.Its only fair to the other growers.NO DOUBLE DIPPING!

2/17/2012 7:27:36 PM

Manchester, TN

If you don't have honest growers, you'll never be able to get the most out of these plants. Whether you or grafting or not, be up front about what you are doing. There would be no difference in not admitting to grafting, than someone who would claim a specific cross with a fruit, when they knew they didn't hand polinate. Someone above said we aren't breeders, I disagree with that statement. If you aren't a breeder, it's all just a big lottery, and there's no need in growing proven lines.

2/17/2012 8:34:55 PM

Muddy Waters

Good point Bryan!

2/17/2012 10:23:00 PM

The North Coast

I should of found a better way to get that point across. I do enjoy the plant breeding side of this whole competition. That statement from me was not totally accurate I do admit. Maybe it would of be better said that we are giant melon growers first and followed very closely by watermelon breeders. You are totally correct. Thanks

2/18/2012 6:27:04 AM

Bowdon, GA

I've never been able to get any answers in either discussion on this subject.

2/18/2012 5:53:09 PM

The North Coast

If you didn't catch them, I posted a few grafted melon pictures in my diary.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=174798

3/15/2012 11:40:01 AM