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Canada

Ok am rebuilding my patch this fall for 2005 growing season

My current patch is 15x15, Fall once all the plants are pulled and finished it will be expanded to 25x25 ft square
The soil thats currently in there has been worked somewhat but not well enough ( results from this year and others)

Ok whats my best approch for this?

at the same time of makeing it 25x25 it will also be raised another foot higher for more depth seeing anything under 1 foot of good soil is pretty much just clay that holds allot of water. I'm thinking drainage as well

what are my options ?

i was thinking after expanding it raising it i would just have a load of "top soil" delivered and add that to patch then till it really well send off a soil sample and then go from there

were would i look to get GOOD soil "top soil"

thanks

Dave

8/29/2004 11:04:34 PM

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

I'm no expert, but I do have clay as well, and have been told that gypsum really helps to break down clay into nicer stuff. So I would be inclined to till in a whole heap of gypsum (I added 600 lbs last fall into a 20 x 25 patch) into the clay, and then mix in your topsoil. Hard to say where you would find it. Here in Nebraska, there are always classified ads selling topsoil, because the builders here scrape off the topsoil and sell it before laying foundations for new homes.

8/30/2004 12:20:43 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I wouldn't be looking for topsoil. As a rule, if topsoil is good, then it's not for sale. Though this differs in farming communities where land hasn't been stripped yet. Check with your local version of an Agriculture Experiment Station. Ag Minister in Canada? I'm not sure.

I would absolutely start with Gypsum & aged leaf compost & manure as well. But so a soil test first.

8/30/2004 4:54:26 AM

Canada

Thanks for the Replys, garden is being pulled tomouro and tilled in on sat, and from there i'll take a soil sample
post the results and go from there

thanks

Dave

9/3/2004 3:32:53 AM

Vancouver, White Rock, Canada

Not sure what you've got in Ontario, but here in Vancouver our landfill sells amazing soil from compost ($10/cubic metre), might want to check with them ?

9/3/2004 3:39:57 AM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Dave - if you have the time I would suggest double digging your clay soil. It is back breaking work, but will buy you another 8 to 12" in depth. Remember to back fill with OM. If you have drainage issues this will certainly help.

Gypsum is a must & will support your calcium as well.

9/3/2004 12:18:56 PM

Canada

Were would I purchase "gypsum" ? and how to apply it ?

My original plans were to

expand patch to 25x25 raise it another 6" to an 1 ft height
add top soil / aged manure tilled in with remaining soil
let sit till around oct send a soil sample in and once i get results back go from there. currently my soil is good down to about 1 ft after that its bascially thick hard clay
( i pulled one plant today) and my patch seems to have a problem with getting water down deep to the roots, I never realized how DEEP these roots actually go we got a ALLOT of rain last weekend and top of soil was still damp this weekend when the plant was pulled and i noticed once i got down about 5" it was totally DRY!!! millions of little red and large dew worms in the area but anything deeper then that it was dry like sand. which tells me that all the water is soaking down a good 3" then running out of patch

how can i prevent my soil from turning into a rock come warm weather so the water will get deep enough down to the roots

thanks

Dave

9/3/2004 11:38:24 PM

Taber, Alberta

Hey Dave, most garden centres sell it. I got mine in the spring at Canadian Tire, it's not too expensive. Just ask around for the managers or the people who know what they are doing. Some garden centres or places like CT employ people who have no clue what it is. I phoned one garden centre to ask if they had it and the girl asked "is that a perennial or annual?"
The application rates are on the bags.
Alan

9/3/2004 11:51:49 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Double dig...add plenty of OM into the clay...Check for water absorption....time how long it takes a quart of water to go into the soil in one spot...then check how deep it penetrated...it will give you a good idea of how long to water and at what time intervals to achieve maximum penetration. and optimal water coverage...soil should be moist and when squeezed hard maybe a drip or two will drop out...Grow Em Big! Chuck

9/10/2004 8:00:20 AM

Canada

Great Thanks

9/11/2004 10:34:25 PM

Canada

Ok as for applications of this stuff, am I better to apply this stuff NOW, before the manure is brought in and tilled into the patch or does it matter?

thanks

DaveM

9/12/2004 12:18:35 AM

Mastic Beach, New York

I would first till/ or double dig and put half of the amount down ,till again then add manure with the rest of the gypsum and till again..you can do the same thing in the spring time too

9/12/2004 12:35:38 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Dave, CMS Calcium Magnesium Sulphate should be found at one of the Co-ops in your KW area. I agree with Steve, soil sample first then adjust as required.

9/12/2004 7:33:46 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

SOIL TeST before altering Magnesium. Guessing is bad.

9/12/2004 8:04:35 AM

Joliet, IL

the easiest way to double dig i figured out is to use
a piece of plywood. place it next to the area you start
with, dig an area and throw the top 8 to 10 inches of
your existing soil on the plywood. then till the area
at minus 8 inches after putting in some peat moss,
shredded leaves, some gypsum, vermiculite or whatever. then
chop up the clayey soil on the plywood and shovel it
back ontop of the area worked. the plywood helps with the
chopping and the shoveling back into the area.
do the entire patch this way, or at least the first 15'
from where the plant will be placed next spring.
now treat your entire patch top layer by just adding
organic material on top of the soil that has been chopped
up once already and will be tilled easily and thoroughly.
it is hard work so just do one or two 8'x 4' sections at
a time enjoy the process. to try to double dig an entire
patch by hand in one day is asking for frustration and a
trip to the chiropractor so break it down over a 2 week
period. i also found about 500 lbs of buried flagstone that i removed and many tree roots in the process.

because you have clayey soil, if you dig pits, dig
another mini pit 2'x 2' in the bottom center of your pit
and fill this mini pit with pea gravel or any draining rock.
this french drain will stop your pit from becoming a mush
bowl.

the best thing about double digging, is you only have to do
it once, the first time.

9/12/2004 9:00:51 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

A point to Shazzy's great idea. If you've ravaged your body over the years as I have mine, then hire some pickup labor to do the digging. ;o)

9/12/2004 12:19:48 PM

Billerica,Massachusetts

a cover crop of winter rye,hairy vetch or buckwheat would also help.

Glenn

9/13/2004 8:41:05 AM

Canada

Shazzy, Took your advice and YES its ALLOT of work.

My current patch is 12x15 so Sat I dug out the first 12x7
area till it was nothing but clay, I took the ro-tiller and bounched all over the place getting down another 3" at best gynsum and sawdust from the mill was added lightly, I then started to break up the first 10" i dug out of that area
and tossed it back into the patch tilling it added gynsum put the last top layer of soil back in and tilled , sunday i did the other portion ( it was a bit nicer to do ) with same additives of gynsum after all the top soil was put back into the patch I added one last layer of gynsum and tilled the entire patch one last time.. Man does the soil look nice once its been tilled ALLOT!! now the patch will sit till my soil tests come back and I will add / minus as required to balance out my numbers to were they should be at.

I had plans on expanding the patch to 20x25 but time and funds dont allow for it this year seeing i'm also putting an 20x20 deck on the back of ths house. I'll work with what ive got for now biggest thing is getting my numbers balanced in teh soil and getting some good seeds for 2005.

Dave

9/19/2004 9:33:14 PM