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No Place Special

Now that almost everyone has posted their opinion on how much "genetics" play into a monster pumpkin, I think maybe we should look at soil. It appears that the general consensus is that soil is debatably the first or second most important contributor in producing a giant pumpkin. With that said, maybe some newbies (and myself incleded) would like to know what, how much and why we add certain things to our soil. I for one add compost, manure (almost any kind I can get), leaves and gypsum. I would assume my soil amendments pail in comparison to what many other growers use. For those of you who go beyond the basic amendments, would you share your experiences and ideas?

12/13/2003 6:06:17 PM

canal winchester ohio

I've got one of my plots where I now want it, but I'm in the process of getting the other one there. To get it there I will add a cow manure/straw mixture, com-til ( a solid waste product), and lots of potting soil.
To give you a idea of my plot that is finally ready ( after 4 years of work), it started out as a 8" raised bed & it is currently a 20" raised bed from 4 years of additives. The second patch ( after 2 years) is 5" higher, but my goal is to get it up to 20" as well. It will probably take 5 years on this plot. My wife & I were talking about a month back of what would happen if we ever moved. The answer was simple, I'll escavate all of it out & take it with me. I'm not doing that much work & walking away..............Paul

12/13/2003 7:01:38 PM

Montoursville, PA

I am absolutely convinced that manures,leaf material and compost of any age or status will bring any and all patches up to an area called excellent condition. How much goes on or in is largely up to the individual grower.

My one thousand square foot patch is receiving a minimum of four inches of manure and maybe three feet of loose leaf material yearly. To this goes a hodge podge of anything else I can lay my hands on. This year it was a bale of feathers from a chicken processing plant. Last year it was a load of mushroom compost. In the past I have added as little as one bale of spoiled hay and some legume spoils raked from a harvested field of soy beans. My yard grass and all unspoiled garden waste goes in via the compost pile first for at least partial conversion to compost. I use pigeon poop hutch cleanings and just about anything and everything that comes my way when it comes.

One year ago I started with a solid good 5% humus content and tested this fall at 17.6% humus content. For one year I worked on building and tilling in as many elements of compost and real compost as I could lay my hands on. When the fall additives are factored in my guess is I will start the season 2004 with a 20% humus content and all other measurable elements of concern at good to excellent.

It is interesting to note that with the exception of time I put absolutely nothing costing cash to rise into these conditons. My only expense was a bit of lime to raise PH into the 6.5 -7.0 range. Most everyone can do this if not this quickly over a period of more time. In my opinion anything over 10% humus content adjusted to the proper PH is a good growing medium. There will not be to much wrong with any of your patch numbers if you do it with manures and the elements of compost including lots of leaf materials.

12/13/2003 7:55:17 PM

Rocky-r@stny.rr.com

I agree with Doc, organic is the way to go. Over the 7 years (next year will be 8) I have been growing, adding manure in the fall (composted is best, but some hot stuff helps heat up the soil too) is probably the best thing, but leaf compost (chopped up leaves) is the best. Of all leaves, sugar maple is the best, as Oak leaves have a waxy finish that takes longer to break down, and can lock up vital nitrogen for a while, especially when needed at the beginning of the plant growth stage. Before and after the additions, always have soil tests done. Do one after you pull plants (which is before any additives to the soil are done) and inthe spring. These two tests compared against one another will help you figure out where you stand and what exactly you did to the levels so you have an idea of where you need to improve, and where you are just fine at.

After manure, leaves, and testing, I figure PH, and add either lime for low PH's (low PH being anything under 6.5) and add a sulfur based product if my PH is too high (anything over 7.2 is considered high for me). If PH is between those two levels (6.5 - 7.2), dont do a thing to adjust PH. One last note on that PH thing, these adjustments do not happen over night, and take time. In 2 years of high PH in my second patch, I have gone from 7.6 to 7.4 then to my current level of 7.2. Manure will lower PH over time, so watch it.

12/13/2003 9:00:26 PM

Rocky-r@stny.rr.com

Lastly we have trace minerals, elements, and nutrients to work back into the soil you have lost over time of excessive growing. I personally have used Azomite over the past 2 seasons on the reccommendation of my good friend and growing buddy Len Knauss, and have seen some nice strides in plant health. Ironite has been used in the past, but since the litigation on its possible toxicity, I am in a holding pattern on that product. I started using gypsum this year to help move toward the organic end and get away from chemical fertilizing. Gypsum will help leech out any salt build up from using the chemical ferts which we used so abundantly over the past years of growing.

In season, the usual, like liquid kelp, fish emulsions, and my newest, calcium nitrate will all be used in a foliar feeding program to help cell strength and plant health.

I hope this helps some..

12/13/2003 9:00:35 PM

Nova Scotia

i agree with docgipe. whatever i can get my hands on for free. i now have accesss to 3 truck loads of ash a year, along with unlimited access to seaweed (use 3 loads twice a year)and treated septic waste (use 3 loads twice a year.) in a 900' raised bed. in other words mike, to compete with the heavey hitters you eaither have to be rich or frugal.

12/13/2003 9:04:01 PM

Montoursville, PA

Building a healthy biologically ballanced growing medium is not rocket science. One needs to add lots a and lots or organic products mentioned above.

A company that uses the image "Fertrell" makes or blends organic elements to support our needs. www.fertrell.com Go there and you will find literally everything needed to build healthy soil. They have Azomite and Greensand which are similar products. Garden centers have one or two types of Greensand (New Jersey and Texas) These each have some different trace elements. Other sources offer volcanic ash which is also an equal or similar product. I like to mix it up to get the maximum possible trace elements that would not normally be found in my backyard soil. Our local garden centers still have Ironite. I just bought up the remaining five bags which when mixed with some of the above gives me what I think is the best of all products used for trace elements and micronutrients. I use a total of about four pounds of the combined products in the Fall and again in the Spring. The actual cost per 1000 sq. ft. bed is about a dollar a pound or $8.00 a year for these products.

12/13/2003 11:00:15 PM

Montoursville, PA

MORE RELATED: In the fall I use about twenty pounds of blood meal and up to a quart of black strap molasses to help breakdown the influx of new raw undigested organic materials. I use about four to six ounces of Simbex 4 an AGRO-K booster to support and increase the speed of decomposition in the direction of in soil compost humus and humates. In an organic healthy living patch this process continues 365 days a year. As humates are created naturally all the growing elements you need are released and held by the growing medium for when the plants will need them. The only thing that can prevent or slow this process is the addition of synthetic elements that can and will knock down or wipe out the biological living world in process. Conversly if you are just turning your efforts into healthy living soil it will only get better each year as you leach and possibly use some retension elements from your synthetic practices, of the past. Patience, work and time will build the better living patch.

12/13/2003 11:00:49 PM

Montoursville, PA

THE COVER CROP.... Every fall many of us use a cover crop. There are many to choose from. Winter rye, white top clover, and hairy vetch are a powerfull combination if planted together. This is called a green manure crop. If you are not aware of the benefits of this practice you really do need to read up this winter and be ready to enter this practice next fall with the cover crop you feel best for your area. I do not believe the larger fruit can be grown without this yearly benefit.

12/13/2003 11:15:33 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Dwaine about application rates for Jersey Greensand. I have seen rates from 2 to 5 Lbs/100sq.ft. Do you apply at the higher or lower rate.

12/14/2003 7:32:09 AM

Montoursville, PA

I always go at the lower rate and split it between Fall and Spring applications. Don't know why! Read it somewhere. If I was just starting maybe I would consider using a little more for the first year or so. After an initial higher application I like to think maintenance and mix or alternate the use of this type product. There are some nintety known trace elements. Each product of this type has a few that the other does not have. I try to use a little of all in this field of consideration.

12/14/2003 8:30:50 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Thanks Doc. Good post Mike. Raising some good questions again as we begin to concentrate on patch deveolpment once again.

12/14/2003 9:04:16 AM

Montoursville, PA

Thanks to Rocky too! In fact all who questioned and commented. When you get comfortable with your patch and have reduced the chemicals going down you will begin to know you are really building. You will also test your nerves from time to time. Growth is never a straight line. Enjoy working with your living soil.

There is always one simple question Garrett poses. It is. "Is what you are placing into the patch going to help or hurt the lowly earthworm"? That is almost to simple but there is more truth in the question than fiction.

The worms will come in great numbers when your soil is clean and growing into a living working body of elements.
Don't even think of buying them. If you build it they will come! If you have nightcrawlers you could give the kids a few pence to pick them for you to apply to the patch. The most available worms sold are red worms. They will not live in anything but your live and working compost pile or a worm farm designed by the breeders to speck for the redworms. If they will live in your patch it is not a ballanced working patch. In this case your patch would still be a large compost pile, of sorts, with much of the nitrogen tied up. That is not a desired condition.

12/14/2003 4:45:45 PM

No Place Special

Fantastic info, Thanks everyone!

12/15/2003 9:03:39 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Doc - any comforting advice on "switching" to organic practices?

I'm having a difficult time letting go of synthetic fertilizer. Is it a faith issue and one has to trust that all of the organic ferts will do their thing just as good as my osmocote slow release?

12/16/2003 12:02:23 AM

Montoursville, PA

The advise and personal practice is already in this thread.
Good organic fertlizers are found by searching Fertrell and perhaps talking with AGRO-K. All organic fertilizers are slow release...for up to a year or more. Consistant use builds on the bases started whenever the last synthetic when in the soil. There is no living mater and no natural from living plant or animal parts found in any synthetic fertilizer.
....I don't think it is a faith issue. You can not trust what you do not know. Grab some more good books and read some more. There are many fully organic gardens in your home town. Find one of those and go see. Develop a coach student situation based on local information.

12/16/2003 2:05:35 PM

No Place Special

Doc, you have a recomendation on a book or two?

12/16/2003 10:20:43 PM

Montoursville, PA

I can't take my own advide on this but there is some truth to the fact that if you have read more than one garden book you are allready a lost soul.

Good basic book....Dear Dirt Doctor, Howard Garrett, $15.00 paperback, Texas University Press, Amazon.com.

If you have trouble understanding this one you are in deep guana. :)

12/17/2003 10:18:40 AM

No Place Special

Doc,

The Dirt Doctor book is on the way.

THANKS!

12/20/2003 1:03:44 PM