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President - GPC

Hand-sprayed the weeds with various solutions of vinegar, uniformly coating the leaves. Researchers found that 5- and 10-percent concentrations killed the weeds during their first two weeks of life.
Older plants required higher concentrations of vinegar to kill them. At the higher concentrations, vinegar had an 85- to 100-percent kill rate at all growth stages. A bottle of household vinegar is about a 5-percent concentration.

Colorado State Weed- Canada thistle, one of the most tenacious weeds in the world, proved the most susceptible; the 5-percent concentration had a 100-percent kill rate of the perennial’s top growth. The 20-percent concentration can do this in about 2 hours.

Spot spraying of cornfields with 20 percent vinegar killed 80 to 100 percent of weeds without harming the corn, but the scientists stress the need for more research. If the vinegar were sprayed over an entire field, it would cost about $65 per acre. If applied to local weed infestations only, such as may occur in the crop row after cultivation, it may only cost about $20 to $30.
Lets see those thistles survive now.........

12/14/2006 3:45:14 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

One thing about vinegar, it will kill what it touches but not kill the roots. That is probably the main difference between it and Roundup. Roundup kills the roots.

Me? I'd go double dose on the Roundup, mix in some vinegar and also some 2-4D, then go after the thistle. Then throw some diesel fuel on it. (Just kidding)

12/14/2006 4:39:07 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

??? Long term affects of vinegar on the soil (patch)...any downside? Peace, Wayne

12/14/2006 10:34:03 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Organic??? The good 40% acetic acid vinegar that is marketted to really kill weeds will burn the skin right of your hands. Splashed into the eyes almost certainly guarantees blindness.

From the MSDS:

Acetic Acid = Oral rat LD50: 3310 mg/kg
41% Glyphosate (Roundup Pro) = Oral rat LD50: 5108 mg/kg
So straight acetic acid is a good deal MORE toxic than Roundup.

From Wikipedia -

Vinegar is a liquid produced by the fermentation of alcohol into acetic acid and other fermentation by-products. The acetic acid concentration ranges typically from 4 to 8 percent by volume for table vinegar [1] (typically 5%) and higher concentrations for pickling (up to 18%) although in some countries the minimum strength may be less. Natural vinegars also contain smaller amounts of tartaric acid, citric acid, and other acids. It has been used since ancient times, and is an important element in Western and European, Asian, and other traditional cuisines of the world.

The pH of vinegar is typically in the range 2-3.5 while commercially available vinegar is usually about 2.4 but the pH level will vary depending on the concentration of acetic acid.

The word "vinegar" derives from the Old French vin aigre, meaning "sour wine." Louis Pasteur showed in 1864 that vinegar results from a natural fermentation process.

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A weed wacker takes the top off the weeds faster than vinegar, does the same job & won't burn eyes or damage the soil biology.

12/14/2006 10:45:05 PM

Sheridan . NY

remenber to much vinegar can change your ph in you soil so be careful--

12/15/2006 8:26:39 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

As a side note to all of this, I once had an expert tell me that many of the sprays such as Roundup that we buy are designed to work at a slightly acid condition, and that if we mix our naturally alkaline tap water (our is alkaline here) with it to make the spray, we are actually neutralizing the Roundup (or whatever).

So because of that, years ago I started adding vinegar with the mix. That is, if the formula called for 2 ounces of Roundup with one gallon of water, I would add 2 ounces of vinegar to that recipe. I've found that when I do this, it really produces a lethal batch of Roundup!

12/15/2006 10:15:51 AM

President - GPC

Perhaps that is our problem here, I found that the roundup used last year was very poor, did not wipe out like I wanted necessitating multiple sprays and extra work. Out CO water out of the tap is 7.6-7.8. Will try a bit of vinegar or bring down the Ph and spray the weeds....And Ill be careful with the vinegar in the eyes......Thanks Tremor

12/15/2006 10:46:42 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

When I say that I add vinegar to the roundup recipe, I'm talking about regular kitchen variety (5% I think) vinegar, not the weed killer vinegar.... just to be clear.

12/15/2006 2:42:05 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Roundup is probably the safest commercially-produced herbicide there is and has no soil activity due to its double positive cation.

No need to mix 2,4-D, as Roundup is effective on broadleaves. It just takes a bit more time. 2,4-D is ineffective on grasses and has some residual activity, which will harm you plants in the long run. It takes about six months, depending on soil type and application rate, for 2,4-D to disappear. Rainfall is also a factor.

As for Tremor's LD 50 reference, you would have to ingest 22 quarts of Roundup, orally, to stand a 50-50 chance of dying from it. Aspirin is more toxic than Roundup.

Incidentally, Roundup is simply a trade name for the molecule isopropylamine salt of glyphosate. There are other trade names out there(and cheaper) such as Razor.

There are also alternatives to Roundup or Razor. I experimented with Preen on field pumpkins last year with good results. It is pre-emergent and oes not affect post-emergent plants. I have not yet researched its mode, but it seems to leach quickly, exemplified by the appearance of late-season weed species. However, late season weed growth is pretty much a non-factor, as these weeds are typically low-growing.

Sure beats the hell out of hand-weeding.

One side note: if your Roundup seems to be less effective as in the past, it is probably aged. I have stored Roundup over the winter in under room temp. conditions and noticed that it is not as effective(at quick-killing) as fresh product. And, to validate Cliff's assertion, the molecule is less effective in hard water or used in mild-steel sprayers or stored in mild steel containers. Hard water and mild steel are negatively charged, essentially tying up some of the molecule's double-positive cation.

Incidentally, I am a former industrial weed sprayer. That's all I have to say about that.

1/11/2007 10:16:26 PM

President - GPC

Good Advice....! Thanks

1/12/2007 10:01:02 AM