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Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

I know I know, another question from the Petman, can't he just read quietly? Well I do search, and no...I can't.

So when I get several loads of "fully composted manure" (whatever that means given the source at the stable) can I just spread it out, till it in, and plant a cover crop for the winter?

I don't want it too hot but need to improve the hard pack clay. Going to also have a friend with a backhoe dig about a couple feet down and loosen it up all over.

7/13/2006 2:24:20 AM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

Oh yeah, and a cover crop for California, 28 degree lows and would like to break up the clay? I put 80% purple vetch and 20% mustard mix last year. Suggestions? I like the mustard alot for the color. The big yellow plot is cool, but understand the vetch is better for soil.

7/13/2006 2:27:56 AM

Rhode Island

petman
believe it or not well composted manure is manure that is a minimum of a year old, has been turn three to four times during the year ( cooked )before appling to patch.

as far as compost helping hard pan i do not believe it will help. the compost will enhance your soil microorganisms but if you have hard pan there will be very little activity at the hard pan levels because of a lack of oxygen ( lack of oxygen also helps promote various soil born diseases )

id suggest also mixing sand in with that hard pan when you have it turned over.even a minor amount of pea stone will also improve drainage and help airate the soil.

pap

7/13/2006 5:53:56 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

*IF* it was fully composted you could use it immediately. How long this takes is a matter of aerobic condition & moisture which impacts biology. Since we didn't perform the composting we are taking the producer's word for it that they turned the pile & kept moisture at ideal levels for at least 1 year. LOL. When pigs fly is my usual response but you might be lucky & have found a credible organization or one that also got lucky.

Either way, if *you* keep the pile aerated & at the correct moisture content all summer the manure should be fine by fall.

I agree with Dick that a true hard-pan needs to be broken before amending or the effort will be of little use. The alternative would be to slope the hard-pan, add drain tile & then build *UP* to a depth conducive to AG root systems.

7/13/2006 8:06:15 AM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

Maybe I am misusing "hard pan."

I have heavy clay soil. The kind that when it rains, you can mold it into things, it sticks to your shoes 3 inches thick, etc. etc.

My limited research has indicated that clay is actually one of the best soils from a nutrient perspective due to it being primarily layer after layer of silt. However the problem is that the silt particles are so small, that penetration of roots, air, etc. are all difficult. In the front yard, I added 800 pounds of gypsum to about a 1200 sf area and that worked very well, however this is a MUCH larger area. I was thinking that if I have the backhoe break it up at a reasonable level (say 3 feet), and then Iadd manure to "aerate it" and keep it from recompacting, I would be in good shape.

As far as the manure, I was going to add to the patch AFTER the season, and then til it in a few times over the winter period. We don't USUALLY get tons of rain.

So now that I have bared my laundry...suggestions?

PS - I think adding sand would create concrete.

7/13/2006 12:39:45 PM

i like to take a scoop of my soil like hand full or so from area that has all of it combined good put it in glass jar with water-shake it up real good-till all dissolved then let set day or so then you can see the layers-clay-sand-silt etc

7/13/2006 12:56:01 PM

Montoursville, PA

Based on all communication I think copius amounts of manure, half composted or real compost mixed, in the top eight, to ten inches will, in a year or two, done each year will deliver, to you an excellent growing medium. I really like your cover crop. If you like the appearance, of your one, stick with it. Your mustard mix may have biological value you did not mention. Remember nature does not mono-culture her cover crops. I think you are right, on with your main choice of cover crop.

Lots, of leaves this fall, would also be, in order. As you till this fall (your fall) drop in six to eight ounces of black strap molasses per 1000 sq. ft. For that matter you can do that now, to build your biology at the rate, of an ounce per gallon drenched. No non commercial booster has more kick, to turn on, your bacteria. Keep the molasses at that strength off the pumpkin leaves when it is growing. If you make tea you could add molasses and drench with no problem.

Fresh manure is best, for most, of us applied, in our fall period. I would bend over backwards, for any manure or material approaching compost any time I can get it. If applied, in the spring, there are unknowns about the weather. It may or may not finish for the grow. Warm weather needed, to convert unfinished matter, to compost does not show up untill about the first, of May or even later here. I just do not like, to gamble, being all tied up with less than finished compost, in the spring.

7/13/2006 1:48:07 PM

Farmville, Virginia (mfowler@hsc.edu)

Tremor, you mentioned the depth of AG root systems...what is the average depth that these roots will go if the soil is in proper shape?

7/13/2006 11:38:24 PM

San Luis Obispo, Ca.

Long time.

7/15/2006 5:52:08 PM

Montoursville, PA

I'll likely get shot, for this one but aside, from the stump, the vast majority, of your roots will be, in the top five or six inches. If you have more food deeper...yes they will go further but not a whole lot. Soil temperature supports the biological action we all crave. This mostly takes place in the top few inches.

I am aware that worm holes make runways, for roots. Someone did a study, on this and found stump roots quite deep, into the soil. Still the working mass is not, to far from the top.

We find Mycorrhiza running all over the ball park sometimes many feet from the plant..........still not to deeply into the patch with any significant developement. The Mycorrhiza service the roots needs and have, to be hosted, by the roots. What the eye can see is pretty much where the root mass is found. Hairline growth, of both surely goes further.

7/15/2006 6:05:01 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Hoot,

I've seen claims that the main tap-root (actually a water root) may dive 10-15' down but despite attempts to follow them I've always broken them long before the 3-4 foot mark.

I agree the majority of feeder roots are in the upper 6". But the deeper we make our premium soil base the better off we are.

Keep in mind that while most tillers have trouble getting more than 8" down, we can add layers of compost & rotten manure every year to continuously add depth. If similar amendments are made every year, then integrating by tilling is necessary. Some of the worlds best growers have gotten to the point where all they do is topdress a new layer of composted manure every fall & no long till at all. This is a fine place to arrive.

7/15/2006 10:44:00 PM