From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Aurora, IL

I've taken a look at the many mychorrizal products available and I'm interested in which products provide the best value based on everyone's experience. I'd prefer an endo/ecto-specific soluble powder that I can load into a syringe or apply to seeds/roots. What's the best out there?

12/3/2011 7:50:53 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Dropseed, if responses appear on this thread, I would guess every one will tell you that what they have for sale, is the best!!!(Seriously,not meaning to sound negative)!! Hopefully someone will tell us awl, how to judge the product?? Propagules per ? ,which varieties are best used by different plants,(ie, same stuff for pkns, melons, maters, sunflowers, tallcorn) etc? Neat question tho, as so many products are on the market now!!! Peace, Wayne

12/4/2011 12:01:06 AM

Western NY

1 - you don't need ecto species for pumpkins, there won't be any benefit. endo colonize pumpkin roots.

2 - I and most top growers that I talk with have been very happy with the myco product from RTI.

12/4/2011 8:19:40 AM

Aurora, IL

thanks, amelio. Maybe I'll plant some Pinus strobus between my rows.

12/4/2011 10:27:44 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

I agree with Andy, RTI is hands down the best Mycorrhiza on the market.
There were tons of tests performed on all the major brands of mycorrhiza about 2-3 yrs ago and RTI came out on top of them all.
The results that you will see from using RTI is proof enough.
We carry a soluble endo, just remember, when mycorrhiza is micronized to a soluble powder, many spores get milled to a point that they "lost", you will need to apply at heavier rates.

Check us out at www.extremepumpkinstore.com

12/4/2011 10:31:40 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Thanks, Tom & Andy...isn't the ecto for "(FRUIT & NUT's)"? Trees that is!!! Peace, Wayne

12/4/2011 10:55:48 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

ecto is for "woody" type plants and trees. Using it on garden plants and flowers to encourage colonization of roots is useless.

12/5/2011 2:05:17 AM

Seattle, WA

Based on my research, I'd recommend the VAM from bioag.com. This product has good levels of appropriate species of endo myco fungi and also contains no trichoderma (studies show high P and trich can both inhibit mycorrhizal colonization)

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bioag%20vam&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDAQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bioag.com%2Fimages%2FVAM_Endo_Tech_LR.pdf&ei=1B7dTsTcJMSoiQKQoaXfCQ&usg=AFQjCNHxdYLdZbxQUoN53IEQOnzZr9iOTA&cad=rja

12/5/2011 2:45:19 PM

Seattle, WA

Tom, maybe you can help me out. I've been wanting to find out what's in the RTI product but haven't seen anything online that shows actual content. Is there trichderma in there? What species of mycorrhizal fungi and in what quantity? Where is this product sourced and manufactured? With the exception of Bioag, everything I've found is sourced out of Canada from 1 manufacturer (talking about endo myco), including the stuff from Dr. Mike at Mycorrhizal Applications.

I know many people are happy with this product, I would personally like to learn more about it.

Thanks in advance,
Tad

12/5/2011 2:48:57 PM

Seattle, WA

Oh, and I'd love a link to the tests you eluded to regarding different myco products.

12/5/2011 2:49:32 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Tad, it would be my pleasure, shoot me an email at tprivitera@optonline.net

12/5/2011 2:56:59 PM

Seattle, WA

Thanks Tom, let me know if you didn't get my email.

12/5/2011 6:14:18 PM

President - GPC

I can help you along that path as well Tad.... Remember the test we wanted to do? Email sent.

12/6/2011 3:05:40 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Wowzers, not tryin to be rude to any party, but it sounds like the game is ON!!!!(What we learn from this is what it's awl about!!) Will be on pins, and needles awaiting the results from this!!! Two of the best at what they know, and do...are now debating qualities of products? This can only help awl of us in the long run!!! This could end up w/ greatness for us awl!!!! Hope it works out for the best, of awl Giant Growers!!! Peace, Wayne

12/8/2011 11:41:07 PM

Massachusetts

if you guys would also test this one out, scott.
http://www.supremegrowers.com/products/myco-blast-mycorrhizae-megapack%252b-soil-beneficials%252d-multipacks-of-single-use-sticks.html

12/9/2011 4:55:19 AM

Aurora, IL

Tad--interesting what you mentioned about Trich. disrupting endo. growth. I've grown oyster mushrooms for years and, even though the context is different, pitting a desired fungal strain against Trich, Aspergillus, etc. and high bacterial counts in culture is always a losing battle no matter how ideal the growing conditions. The undesired micros are much more aggressive. Not sure why companies would add micros to a product without understanding how they interact (its hard enough isolating micros in PFLA let alone showing causality.)

12/9/2011 7:14:38 AM

Seattle, WA

I'll try and dig up the study. I know it came out of Florida a few years ago. Here's one from a quick google search that supports that position though:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2433271
http://www.springerlink.com/content/glqqwtchut7kf7w7/
(glommus mossae is one of the main endo strains you see in myco mixes; see above link)

Tom, have you had a chance to dig up that study? Any info on the RTI product?

I also want to make it clear that I haven't actually tried the bioag product, but I've heard good things from a number of people, and I do know that they don't have trichoderma in it.

Dropseed, I think the initial thinking was that since both have plant benefits, they would package them together. I think trichoderma may be cheaper to manufacture as well? Possibly that people would see more plant results, even if they didn't get as good of myco colonization? I'm just speculating. What we really need on the market is an active mycorrhizae product, rather than in spore form. There's some logistics issues, which is why I would highly recommend a cover crop and no-till practices in your patch. This will allow for the fungal hyphae (not just myco) to remain intact, and the cover crop will keep the mycorrhizae active in the soil (provided the cover crop supports the same species of myco, which I'm pretty sure most would). Get a good N-fixing cover crop like clover in there and you're set for the Winter!

12/9/2011 3:44:05 PM

Seattle, WA

I picked up a sample of the RTI product at a hydro shop yesterday. It was a small package, but only cost $2.50, which seemed very reasonably priced.

Looked on the label, and then only listed ingredient was glommus intradices.

Based on this, I would say it's my 2nd choice for myco due to the fact it doesn't contain trichoderma, but only 1 myco species.

The BioAg VAM contains 7 different myco species, with g. intradices making up the majority of it.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bioag.com%2Fimages%2FVAM_Endo_Tech_LR.pdf&ei=Mj3mTq_rBs_QiALv-ICvBg&usg=AFQjCNHxdYLdZbxQUoN53IEQOnzZr9iOTA

Here's the biggest kicker though:
The RTI product contains glommus intradices at 80 spores per CC.

The BioAg VAM contains 104 propagules per gram.

Without knowing the weight/density of the myco, you really can't compare the two side by side in regards to which has more g. intradices.

12/12/2011 12:51:06 PM

Seattle, WA

Forgot to mention that the BioAg Vam contains 7 myco species, while the RTI product only has the 1.

12/12/2011 12:52:15 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Tad,
Before we compare different brands, let’s educate everyone on the difference between a Spore and a Propagule:
A Spore is the full colony forming unit,
A Propagule is piece of a spore, a root fragment, or hyphal filament, the result of a milled product, the more the product is milled, the more propagules, the less it is effective.
Look at it like this, consider the spore an egg, if you chop up an egg, will you get more chickens?
If we are choosing based on the higher number under the pretense that “more is better”, we might not be making the correct choice.
RTI uses one species, glommus intradices, they found that this species to be the most effective, other brands or Companies use several species, what happens is that the different species are in competition attacking the same roots until one species dominates and is able to inoculate the root. With the one dominate species, there is no competition, therefore inoculation is faster and more efficiently.
I am still looking for the test results, they are on an external Hard Drive somewhere.
Tom

12/12/2011 3:15:14 PM

Aurora, IL

Tom-- it sounds to me like you're comparing a spore and a propagule in the same manner that a spore is a genetically distinct cell and a propagule is a cloned colony of cells. If that's right, I completely agree (in my humble opinion) that after you clone or separate (mill?) mycelium to produce hyphal fragments the mycelium has to use energy to recover from the trauma. After each disturbance, the mycelium becomes weaker until senescence occurs. It's also worth nothing that having greater genetic diversity in spores would be advantageous in competition with other micro's (and a hedge, in general). That said, propagules should begin vegetative growth faster than spores (if not over-milled) because they're skipping reproduction.

12/12/2011 5:36:55 PM

Seattle, WA

Tom,

Good post, I didn't initially notice the spore vs propagule difference. I've gone ahead and done some more research.

Just got off the phone with Dr. Mike Amaranthus of Mycorrhizal Applications (www.mycorrhizae.com). He is one of the industry leaders in regards to mycorrhizae here in the US (I was a bit surprised to get him on the phone actually!).

Here's the jist of what he had to say:

Spores in roots are considered propagules (mycorrhizal-forming entity) and have to be labeled as such to be certified/registered in all 50 States.

They only count the spores inside the roots. There are other types of propagules, but they don't count them.

12/12/2011 5:39:32 PM

Seattle, WA

They said they don't mill their product because broken spores won't form a propagule and are therefore useless.

He said that depending on density, you will get 400 cc's to 800 cc's per lb (they list their products by propagules per lb.).

He said that in side by side studies that they've done, plants perform much better with a variety of mycorrhizal species than with just one. I've requested him to email me some of this information, but I haven't received it yet from him. Drought, disease pressures, p-fixing situations, will all perform better with multiple species of mycorrhizae, as some will outperform others based on soil conditions, soil structure, biology present, environmental factors, etc...

He did say that g. intradices is a good myco species and any myco inoculation will benefit the plant.

Just want to state that I have no interest besides intellectual in this. I don't sell any of these myco products, but I do find this to be a fun dialogue.

I've used Mycorrhizal Applications products in the past, specifically their Soluble MAXX. It worked quite well and helped in rehabilitating a very expensive Japanese Maple.

I asked him about the inclusion of trichoderma in some of their myco products and he said the type of trichoderma makes a difference and they've used trichoderma to increase germination in over a 100,000 lbs. (they're the largest myco company in the US by far)

I've asked him to send me some more data or studies supporting this, so hopefully I'll have more info soon!

12/12/2011 5:39:38 PM

Massachusetts

tad, what you said about plants perform much better with a variety of mycorrhizal species, i would tend to believe this , if you only have one type of spore, then if that type of spore is affected or destroyed by say, the ferts we apply during the season,your chances of one type of spore living (more resistant)is much greater than having
just one type in the soil???????
tom, you said the species of spores compete against each other, do you know how long the fight goes on for, before they are all dead except one, and do you know which type of Mycorrhizal spore is the winner of this battle? i love this topic, hope we get somewhere.scott

12/12/2011 6:08:52 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Dropseed- I am not comparing anything, I am pointing out that Tad was listing Spores against propagules.Propagules are fine if they aren't parts of roots and such, then its garbage.

Tad,
I am not going to get into the debate to see if Dr. Mike Amaranthus product is better or worse than RTI's. This has been done in depth, what I will tell you is to look at which product has been giving more consistant successful results.
To me, having Tricoderma mixed with Mycorrhiza in any kind of large batch is nutz, tricoderma has a very limirted shelf life.
The simple fact that the different species will compete and eventually fight off each other until one specie dominates the root makes me think that there is alot of alot of wasted time until the roots are innoculated.
I will pass this on to RTI so they can get into detail about their products.
Tad- you state "I have no interest besides intellectual in this", I find this hard to believe, you contacted Mycorrhizal Applications, yet, I don't see that you contacted RTI?

12/12/2011 9:06:35 PM

Massillon, Ohio

Determining the best products to use is important to all of us. What has me concerned now, is this.....it is common practice, when burying vines, for growers to sprinkle in mycorrhizae and Rootshield, which is trichoderma harzianum. Have we been shooting ourselves in the foot?

12/12/2011 9:15:27 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Glenna, no, it is fine.

12/12/2011 9:18:36 PM

Massillon, Ohio

Thanks Tom!

12/12/2011 9:55:29 PM

Aurora, IL

yikes...push on Tad.

12/12/2011 10:25:26 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

"yikes push on Tad"? I didn't know that this was a show down dropseed?
I agree this is a great topic of conversation, but if you do a search on BP, you will find that this who's Mycorrhiza is the best topic has been beaten to death.
The facts are this:
-You cannot compare propagules to spores per cc
-Several species fighting for domination doesn’t make a product better.
-There are several fungal components that are commonly used commercially as fungal propagules. These include spores, colonized root fragments, and dry fungal mycelium from the root zone.
-Some companies have been listing their inoculum strength by showing the number of “propagules”. This included spores, root fragments, and dried mycelium.
-There is considerable difference in the effectiveness over time of each of these types of propagules-Spores are the inoculum propagule of choice, but all propagules are not spores.
-Spores are actually reproductive and survival structures produced by the mycorrhizal fungi.
-Colonized root fragment propagules are nothing but plant roots containing mycorrhizal fungal mycelia. In the production of some brands of Mycorrhiza, these roots are removed from the plant and soil, dried, diced up into small pieces, and mixed into a dry carrier. They are not very effective.
-RTI uses Spores.
-There can be hundreds of species, are all of these species effective? I do not know this answer.
-Tricoderma will absolutely help a plant, this has been proven for years in the growing community, but we also know it has a 6 month shelf life, that isn’t a 6 month shelf life from the time you buy it, its 6 months from the time it has been in someone’s warehouse, look for an expiration date.
-It is true that Mycorrhizal Applications is the biggest manufacturer in the US, yes, I use to resell their product until I tested RTI's product and got feedback from many growers. I feel that we are offering the best product on the market.

12/13/2011 3:07:34 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

*Tad is an expert with compost tea, I've followed his posts on compost tea boards and I am familiar with the Simplici-tea products, which Tad works for if I am not mistaken.
I have a lot of respect for his knowledge in that field, I am not however going to get into a show down because someone wants to entertain themselves this winter, so you can "push on", I am here to give growers facts. I really don’t know what more can be said about Mycorrhiza.

12/13/2011 3:07:41 AM

Aurora, IL

Tom--I am not trying to provoke anything. I'm simply responding to your tone. I asked you a question for clarification (and incidentally defended your position), and you responded by being defensive and showing that you didn't understand the question or didn't want to answer it. I don't see the harm in asking questions. If your product is superior then I'd presume that you'd be thrilled to explain why it is. I'd love to see the data that defends your reasoning. I respond to science, not dogma. Just because a product is designed for "extreme gardeners" doesn't make superior. Most of what you said sounds reasonable to me and I'll defer to you in terms of expertise. I'm not an expert like Tad or have worked a lot with VAM. For what its worth, I do have degrees in plant science and soil science, spent 2 years in a soil micro lab, and did my thesis on N immobilization and soil micro diversity. But I will defer.

12/13/2011 8:00:20 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Dropseed, I owe you an apology, I did not read your question all the way through.
To answer your question: "it sounds to me like you're comparing a spore and a propagule in the same manner that a spore is a genetically distinct cell and a propagule is a cloned colony of cells."
You are correct, but this is after speaking to many of the various companies pro's on staff. This isn't anything new, this info has been available for years.
Dropseed, shoot me an email at tprivitera@optonline.net, I am very interested in getting your perspective on a few findings.
Once again, my apologies.

12/13/2011 9:59:54 AM

Seattle, WA

Tom,

I'm not trying to attack the RTI product. It's true that my background and expertise is in aerated compost tea. I do focus my attention in general on soil biology, though mycorrhizae is hardly my specialty. Our company does not sell any myco products, though we did have the Soluble MAXX for a little while. My father is an business acquaintance of Dr. Mike, though yesterday was the first time I'd ever spoken to him. I don't know anyone at RTI and my only knowledge is from reading their ingredient list on their package. I did state in a previous post that the RTI product seems to have a good reputation from growers who have used it. Please don't see this as a "show down." I'm only sharing the information I have available based on the research I've done. I am hoping to carry at myco product in April when I open an organic hydro shop and want to know what the best product is that I can offer at that time.

12/13/2011 12:56:07 PM

Seattle, WA

I'm not convinced that the use of trichoderma when attempting mycorrhizal colonization is a good thing. Dr. Mike claims to have used trichoderma in germinating mycorrhizal fungi. I assumed we were talking about endo the entire time, but should have clarified with him. In addition, I've listed studies above that seem to refute this.

Based on my understanding, you would want to wait on adding any trichoderma to your soils until AFTER mycorrhizal colonization has occurred. Of course, some trichoderma will be naturally occurring in your soil. If you compare spore counts on trich vs myco, they're not even close. The trich products are significantly higher.

FROM MYCORRHIZAL APPLICATIONS WEBSITE:
Available Phosphorous and Mycorrhizal Inoculation:

High levels of Available Phosphorus (at the time of inoculation) do not harm the mycorrhizae, but it can slow the germination process. One of the main functions of mycorrhizae is to extract phosphorus from the soil. If there is already a high level of phosphorus available to the plant the mycorrhizae tend be more slow or lazy, so to speak, they have no reason to go to work. When inoculating with Mycorrhizae it is best to keep the Available Phosphorus levels around a more natural level. You can increase those levels 3 weeks or so after inoculation without an effect on the mycorrhizae if needed, but remember the mycorrhizae should now be helping you plant more effectively and efficiently use those nutrients already in the soil.

Some Good Rules of Thumb for Avaialble Phosphorus when Inoculating:

Bray: 70 PPM (parts per million) available is ideal
N-P-K analysis of 10 or below normally preferred on “P”
Time release and organic fertilizers normally the best
Add mycorrhizae allow 3 weeks or more to germinate then apply fertilizers with high P values

12/13/2011 12:57:56 PM

Seattle, WA

I got this today in my email from Dr. Mike:

Glomus mosseae
Glomus mosseae is one of the most researched and widely distributed endomycorrhizal fungi. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. mosseae

•    Increased Nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P) uptake
•    Enzyme activity increases access micro nutrients
•    Protects roots
•    Stimulates root development
•    Improved performance of woody perennials
•    Keeps root systems healthy
•    Increases fruiting and flowering
•    Increases crop yields


Glomus aggregatum
Studies have determined the importance of the endomycorrhizal fungus G. aggregatum:

•    Improves plant performance in sandy soils
•    Protects plant roots
•    Effective root colonization with time release fertilizers
•    Tolerant of high fertility levels
•    Improves performance of Palms, Fruit trees.

Glomus intraradices
Glomus intraradices is the most widespread and researched endomycorrhizal fungi. Literally thousands of studies have determined the importance of G. intraradices:

•    Increases nitrogen and phosphorus uptake
•    Increases crop yields
•    Protects plant roots
•    Can access organic forms of nitrogen and phosphorus
•    Improves growth and performance of turf grasses, agricultural crops and nursery stock
•    Improves plant resistance to a wide array of soil toxicities
•    Drought protection
•    Salt tolerance

Glomus etunicatum
Glomus etunicatum is also a widespread and well researched endomycorrhizal fungus. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. etunicatum:
•    Very effective in agricultural soils
•    Promotes root health
•    Greatly improves drought tolerance
•    Increases mineral uptake
•    Effective in mine reclamation
•    Increases crop yields
•    Flowering increases
•    Increases enyzme activity
•    Improved plant establishment
•    I

12/13/2011 12:59:21 PM

Seattle, WA

Glomus deserticola
Glomus deserticola is common in semi arid and arid conditions . Studies have determined the importance of G. deserticola:
•    Very effective in reducing drought stress
•    Promotes salt tolerance
•    Increases P nutrition
•    Increases crop yields
•    Increases N fixation activity

Glomus clarum
Glomus clarum is distributed widely. Numerous studies have determined the importance of G. clarum:
•    Protects against heavy metal toxicity
•    Promotes salt tolerance
•    Increases P nutrition
•    Improved growth of grain crops
•    Increases N fixation activity
•    Increases crop yields
•    Well adapted to a wide variety of plants and soil conditions

Glomus monosporum
Glomus monosporum is widely distributed in mediterranean climates. Studies have determined the importance of G. monosporum:
•    Active during periods of low water availability
•    Promotes root rot tolerance
•    Increases P nutrition
•    Improved fruit production
•    Increases production of vegetable crops

12/13/2011 1:00:11 PM

Seattle, WA

Gigaspora margarita
Gigaspora margarita is common in tropical and subtropical areas. Studies have determined the importance of G. margarita:

•    Increases P nutrition
•    Improved growth of tropical and subtropical fruits

Paraglomus brasilianum
Paraglomus brasilianum is common in rehabilitation of disturbed soils. Studies have determined the importance of P. brasilianum:

•    Resistance to soil toxicity
•    Improved root enzyme activity
•    Enhances soil remediation

Pisolithus tinctorius
Pisolithus tinctorius is a puffball species that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use a blend of several ecotypes in our MycoApply® formulations which assures rapid mycorrhizal formations across a variety of environmental conditions. Documented benefits include:

•    Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species
•    Increases feeder root production
•    Tolerant of hot, dry conditions
•    Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity
•    Inhibits soil pathogen growth and plant infection
•    Benefits plants in disturbed environments and acid soils

Rhizopogon
Rhizopogon spp is a truffle species that has numerous special qualities important in a soil inoculation program. The Rhizopogon groups of R. villosulus, R.luteolus, R amylopogon and R fulvigleba targets a wide range of ectomycorrhizal tree and shrub species.

•    Promotes soil structure
•    Tolerant of cold soil temperatures
•    Tolerant of a broad pH range
•    High levels of enzyme activity benefiting nutrient and micronutrient acquisition
•    Can utilize organic forms of nitrogen
•    Protects seedlings against moisture stress
•    Promotes successful plant establishment and growth

12/13/2011 1:01:12 PM

Seattle, WA

Scleroderma
Scleroderma is a semi hypogeous genus that is widespread across an array of diverse habitats and ectomycorrhizal host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal formulations in our MycoApply products S.cepa and S. citrinum. Documented benefits include:

•    Rapid early growth of inoculated tree species
•    Improves N and P uptake
•    Increases feeder root production
•    Prolific rhizomorph producer improves performance in hot, dry conditions
•    Amelioration of heavy metal toxicity
•    Improves root health
•    Improves restoration of degraded soils

Laccaria
Laccaria is a mushroom genus that is also widespread across an array of diverse habitats and host plants. We use two top performing mycorrhizal speciess in our MycoApply products L. laccata and L. bicolor. Documented benefits include:

•    Improves survival and growth inoculated tree species
•    Improves N and P uptake
•    Increases feeder root production
•    Protects roots
•    Tolerant of high fertility levels
•    Decreases drought stress

12/13/2011 1:01:19 PM

Seattle, WA

Based on what I've found out so far (and I think I need to chat with the RTI people and also the Bio Ag folks), this is my understanding.

1. While propagules and spores are different entities, in this instance when Mycorrhizal Applications refers to propagules, they are referencing spores but must call them propagules in order to meet licensing standards in all 50 States. Dr. Mike stated that they do not count propagules that are not spores, because he agreed that they would be largely ineffective.

2. It is very difficult to compare myco products!

My OPINION:

In the case of soil biology and diversity, I feel that having additional myco species beyond just g. intradices would be beneficial. I would like to see some evidence that these myco species are in direct competition with each other when colonizing a root hair. It seems logical to me that it's more likely the competition with be with other micro-organisms in the soil, and survival and colonization would become more successful with a diversity of myco species, as certain species would be more successful in different environmental conditions, with variables like soil temperature, existing soil biology, moisture levels, and soil structure all having some influence on colonization.

Again, the above paragraph is my OPINION. I'm more than happy to admit that I could be wrong.

12/13/2011 1:13:46 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Heavy afternoon read for my head!

So your saying it doesn't work all that good Tad?

12/18/2011 5:29:51 PM

Seattle, WA

So.Cal.Grower,

To be clear, I'm not saying that it doesn't work good. I'm just sharing what I've learned from talking to people smarter than me on the subject.

Some people have been quite happy with the RTI product.

Based on the reading I've done and people I've talked to, the last paragraph in my post is my opinion on the subject.

As you can see, it's a bit of a contentious subject and quite difficult to compare products.

Ideally you would get the proper myco species to colonize your patch's roots and then keep cover crops and use no-till practices during the off-season so you wouldn't need to re-apply every year and the myco would be active and not in spore form (shorter delay in colonization).

I know other container growers who have done side-by-side with myco products vs not using them at all and claim to have not seen a difference. Dr. Mike has photos using controls that would be exactly opposite to this conclusion.

The theory that some people put out is that due to the length of time needed for colonization, it may have little benefit due to the short life of the plant (annuals). However, in the case of giant pumpkins, every little bit helps!

12/19/2011 2:23:10 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Not that I really want to draw this on any longer than it has been:

Spores and Propagules

In scientific terms, a propagule can be any part of a CFU (colony forming unit)-- a particle or "fractured piece" of a spore, fungal hyphae, glomalin, or a root fragment, but not necessarily a CFU its self.

A spore is a true colony forming unit capable of reproduction. It is comparable to an egg. If I give you an egg, you have one egg and that egg is capable of producing one chicken. If I then take that same egg and chop it into 8 separate pieces, are you then going to hatch eight separate chickens? No. It's the same concept.

A spore can be milled or broken-down into many pieces (propagules), but it will no longer be able reproduce and form new colonies.The more a product is milled, the higher the propagule count, and the lower the infectivity (total viable spores).

A standard unit for measuring spores to propagules is 10-1. So for every one spore there are ten propagules. Propagules are used as a unit of measurement in many soluble mycorrhizal products because the spore count has been diminished by the milling process required to produce a soluble product. When purchasing a mycorrhizal product look for products which are listed in spores because that is what you are paying for, not spore parts. Why buy egg shells when you can get whole eggs?

12/19/2011 4:56:16 PM

Seattle, WA

Tom,

Everything you say in your post is true.

The only issue I have with that is the fact that in order to pass licensing issues in all 50 States, you have to list your myco product by propagules, not spores (which is apparently what Mycorrhizal Applications and BioAg do). RTI does not.

Dr. Mike also claims that they don't count anything as propagules in their count if it's not a viable myco spore. He also states that there is no milling of their product.

Therefore, I don't think it's any more of an accurate way of comparing myco products, or the amount of myco "spores" they contain.

Frankly, I'm disappointed in all these companies and their inability to make it easier for the consumer.

To me, the biggest issue is the diversity question. I'd like to see some data from RTI that shows that how a diversity of myco species delays myco colonization, and how a monoculture of g. intradices is superior to a product that would contain a diversity of myco species, like I listed above. Other myco species besides g. intradices have plant benefits, as I listed above. Is there data to show that a plant is better off having only a g. intradices infection. I would think that other species of myco would have significant benefit depending on soil ecology.

I don't see this as a negative discussion, and I'd like to play it out as far as possible. To be clear, I'm not attacking RTI or your choice to carry them as a product.

12/19/2011 6:18:13 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Tad,
I understand that you are not attacking me, nor do I want to attack you.
Call RTI, they will answer all of your questions.
Happy Holidays!

12/19/2011 6:23:56 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Soil test should be back any day Tom!

Happy holidays!

12/19/2011 7:51:26 PM

Aurora, IL

Tad--I feel the same way about the ambiguity of it all. I've decided to run tests this winter on different products, testing several plant families, germination rates, root/shoot, the works. I'll post when the analysis is complete.

12/19/2011 8:55:45 PM

Seattle, WA

Thanks Dropseed, be sure to let me know how it all turns out!

Tom, if you ever get a chance to send me that info you mentioned at the beginning of this discussion, I'd appreciate it.

Cheers,
Tad

12/20/2011 12:41:17 PM

Seattle, WA

Dropseed,

Interestingly enough, I have it from a reliable source that all the g. intradices is coming from Premier in Canada and all these companies are just repackaging and relabeling it.
http://www.usemykepro.com/myke-pro-mycorrhizae-product.aspx

Additionally, more companies are buying from Mycorrhizal Applications and then re-labeling further and marking it up.
http://www.advancednutrients.com/hydroponics/products/piranha/piranha_product_information.php

I know for sure the guys above get their myco from Mycorrhizal Applications. (they state on the website that they make it themselves)

There's a liquid product at the first link that has significantly higher spore counts than any of the products we have been discussing.

12/20/2011 3:38:14 PM

France

There're some endos with differents spores concentration. Some contains 100 spores per gr, others 800 spores per gr or even 4000 spores per gr. Prices are high. They suggest to apply the products with an high pressure injection stick.

12/20/2011 4:48:40 PM

Aurora, IL

That's some good stuff Tad.

12/20/2011 7:29:22 PM

Redmond, Washington; U.S.A.

Tad, I need to get some compost and tea ingredients from you next year, And thank you for your help with the compost teas that KIS has helped me with for all these years.

Tom, you have an excellent store and I look forward to buying more from extreme pumpkins. And both of you have been helpful and generous in giving your time to help our pumpkin club here in the northwest the PNWGPG.

12/22/2011 12:22:44 AM

Redmond, Washington; U.S.A.

Now I will say this. Last year I used exclusively RTI mycorriza for the first time. I had 2 1,000+ lbs. pumpkins in 2011. I'm not complaining about that. ;)

12/22/2011 12:25:40 AM

Redmond, Washington; U.S.A.

Both Grown 100% Organic

12/22/2011 12:28:04 AM

Redmond, Washington; U.S.A.

Reforestation Technologies. Its all about planting more trees! They are doing good.

12/22/2011 1:14:01 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Thanks for the kind words!

12/23/2011 1:11:52 AM

Seattle, WA

Here's a good article on mycorrhiza:
http://www.parco1.com/text/mycorrhiza/Mycorrhiza%20Primer.pdf

Edit: sorry for the typo spelling g. intraradices in my earlier posts.

And here's a discussion between Michael Menendez of Soil Secrets and some other folks. He also sells and believes in offering just g. intraradices, but there's a quote from Dr. Mike supporting diversity as well.

I'm almost positive he's sourcing his stuff from Premier (they offer a product with the same spore count), but I believe his stuff is the highest available spore count of g. intraradices in the US, if that's the route you want to go.

Hope that helps! (And thanks to Tim Wilson of Microbe Organics for sending me some of the info.)

12/23/2011 12:53:20 PM

Glosta

Tad I have talked with Michael Menendez of soil secrets. You are semi correct on his sourceing. They produce their own but when they cannot keep up with demand they outsource to Premier. Since they can meet the requirements of the Guarenteed analysis. The analysis has to be verified by an Iso 9001 certified lab to meet their specification. I work at an Iso 9001 certified company. It's not easy to get our keep this certification, all your ducks need to be in a row. So this certification speaks volumes for a company, IMHO.
Soil Secrets Endo Maxima is used as a seed treat, financially it would be difficult to broadcast at $97 a lb. Alot of us use 5# per plant.
Premier Techs SP1 (1,452,000 spores per lb) is listed as a seed treat also, It comes in a 4 kg package, I was Unable to locate a price at this time.
I will be using Pumpkin Pro on one plant. Endo Maxima on another and Symbio UK Mycoforce Transplanter ( 28,000 spore/propagule per lb but great diviersity, 9 species)

hopefully I can get a microscopic view of roots at end of season to compare colonization. I wont be able to distinguish which species did best but hopefully just see which plant had better colonization. Its a rough test but has some value.

1/4/2012 9:46:22 AM

Glosta

correction---- Premier techs product is Myke Pro PS3 -not sp1. Sorry for any confusion. ( spore count 1.452,800 per lb) and comes in 1.3 lb and 8.8 lb packages.

1/4/2012 10:10:02 AM

Seattle, WA

Bry,

Good post. I know that Michael Menendez claims that they produce their own, but so do many people in the US that are actually just sourcing from Premier. That being said, I think Premier is a great source based on what I've learned. I've been told that Premier will produce any spore count you want on the g. intraradices. M. Menendez does have the highest spore count product in the US that I've seen.

There's a hydroseeding forum he's on where he kinda dances around the issue of where he sources his AM.

1/4/2012 2:33:21 PM

Glosta

I have an Email directly from him, that states he produces his own with Premier as a back up source. No dancing around there.

1/4/2012 3:11:36 PM

Seattle, WA

Have you seen any pics of his lab? I'm just skeptical because it seems like so many people in this industry lie about stuff. I'm not accusing Menendez, I don't know the guy. Frankly as long as he's doing the lab certification on the product then I suppose it doesn't really matter where it's coming from.

I have his myco on the list of products I'd like to try out. Have a small RTI package I'm going to try on my next batch of plants.

1/5/2012 3:08:35 PM

Cameron

We used a mixture of Bio Endo, Pumpkin Pro & Myke Pro by Premier last year. This made sure we had all the bases covered. In previous years we have used a mix of Bio Endo & Pumpkin Pro to suit our Mycor applications,so when the GVGO ordered some Myke Pro in we thought that it wouldn't hurt to add some of that into the mix too. LOL. We'll continue to use a mixture of all three again in 2012. Good luck.

Jane & Phil

1/6/2012 7:57:56 AM

Glosta

which Myke pro product did you use phil? they have so many different ones. Each one has a different spore count.

1/6/2012 8:12:21 AM

Torrance, Ca.

This is getting interesting.

1/6/2012 12:17:53 PM

Rhode Island

Ron and I have been using RTI products since 2005,the year Ron broke the 1500 pound barrier.We have been using their products ever since.
All i know is they work, and work well.
That does not mean there are no other companies out there that make as good a product? who knows?
I only know what works well for us.
Pap

1/7/2012 6:49:13 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Agreed Pap, the proof is in the results.
Any company can make claims, but when all is said and done, it boils down to what works.
Most all mycorrhiza will work to some degree, we offer what has been proven to work over an over.

1/8/2012 9:11:44 AM

Cameron

Bry, we used Mykes Pro PS3, but it was mixed in with RTI's Pumpkin Pro & Joel Holland's product Bio Endo Plus. All three are great products & we suggest that you use at least one of them for best results. This is just what we did.

We took a cup of each, mix them all together & filled the large ketchup bottle to apply it to the roots.

The best thing for us is that Mykes is available in Canada, while the other 2 need to be imported into Canada. This is a big hassle for us. We'll continue to use a mix of all three in 2012 in hopes of a new pb. Good luck all.

Jane & Phil

1/8/2012 11:33:33 AM

Seattle, WA

I'm not against the RTI product, I'm glad you guys got good results! I think that science is important in determining what is going to be most effective for your plants, especially considering that there are so many variables involved in your growing processes. I don't know of any pumpkin growers that install controls in their methodology. How do you know what "new" product made your plant so much healthier from one season to the next? Could it be a different compost/nutrient/watering practice/etc...? While I agree that proof is in the results, I think there are too many uncontrolled variables in the average patch to draw any strong conclusions as to the viability of a given product.

I'm glad people are seeing good results using mycorrhizal fungi regardless, I'd just keep my above comment in the back of your mind when evaluating products of any nature in your patch.

1/9/2012 12:22:22 PM

Glosta

RTI is a fine product. I've used it for 2 years now. But have also used others. All I know is myco/plant interaction is a "by chance" association. Just because you put it in your soil doesn't mean it connected to the roots. It needs the signal from the host plant in order to make the symbiotic relationship. So the more spores per product the better your chances. I think what Phil and Jane have done is a great method. Get a superiors spores count product and mix it with a product that has a good carrier. Increasing the odds exponentially.

1/10/2012 4:08:52 AM

Alaska

Add the compost and forget the tea. IMHO.

1/16/2012 4:05:14 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Can u explain Alaska?

Newb here.

1/16/2012 7:01:55 PM

Seattle, WA

So. Cal. Grower, I think "Alaska" got confused on the topics. What we are discussing here is mycorrhizal fungi, which is not a part of compost or any tea.

To learn more about it in general, you can google it or go to www.mycorrhizae.com.

Hope that helps!

1/17/2012 1:57:44 PM

Alaska

It's been an amazing adventure watching with amusement the self proclaimed ACT/soil food web experts flip flop all over the place. I'm not disregarding the science but you need to give the most weight to those doing it in the field. The growers that are getting the results we all want. What works in theory or in a Lab doesn't always work well in the field. There are no silver bullets and that includes a perfect soil. There are many factors involved and probably the most important is a growers total commitment,total plant care. For some it takes a long time to get a feel for when it's going right others just seem to know instinctively. Your worst enemy at times is yourself. So IMHO for my money I'll add the organic materials needed to foster and build a balanced healthy soil. Not fussing a whole lot about the micro herd numbers. Let the herd decide on it's own who will remain supreme. All awhile allowing me to focus on the above ground chores that are just as important. I may not have a degree or a microscope but I have broken nearly a dozen world records in the giant vegetable arena.

1/17/2012 4:07:02 PM

Torrance, Ca.

Thanks Tad!

1/17/2012 6:14:45 PM

Alaska

So.Cal.Grower, go with the guys that have been there and done it! Their lab is their pumpkin patch. No smoke and mirrors just results. It's as simple as that.
http://www.extremepumpkinstore.com/ecom-prodshow/Symbios.html

1/18/2012 4:41:20 AM

Alaska

Excuse me the last post was meant for Dropseed.

1/18/2012 4:44:32 AM

Seattle, WA

Scott,

I'm not sure where you got offended by posts. I've never claimed to be an "expert" though I do run a compost tea company and am happy to share my knowledge on the subject if you follow any of my posts in the compost tea forum.

As for mycorrhizae, I've fully stated I'm not an expert. However, I've used many different myco products over the years and think that science and research are quite important in evaluating what validity of product claims. I've shared both my research and opinions in the above posts. You don't have to like it or agree with it, but it's hardly "smoke and mirrors." If anything, I hardly understand your blind allegiance to RTI. Can you show or send me any controlled studies that show RTI outperforms over myco products in regards to giant pumpkins or any other crop? I've already found other companies that offer g. intraradicies in higher spore/propagule count, so unless they have some secret ingredient I'm not sure how you can defend them without trying any other products or researching it yourself.

I have no monetary interest in this. I don't sell any myco products (though I'm hoping to open an urban farm store/organic hydro shop in Redmond, WA this year) and will want to carry some myco products at that time. Part of this dialogue was me determining what products I will want to offer customers at that time.

What would be ideal in regards to myco would be to have a cover crop that has a mycorrhizal infection so you have active spores/hyphae in your soil when you plant your pumpkins. Otherwise, based on the reading I've done, you're looking at 6-8 weeks for colonization/infection to occur. I think speeding that process is really the biggest variable to efficacy, more so than which myco company you think is the best.

1/19/2012 1:15:20 PM

Seattle, WA

In an effort to contact RTI, I posted this on their facebook page last week:

Do you have any studies that show that g. intraradices alone creates a better mycorrhizal infection rate with giant pumpkins across varied media and environmental conditions when compared with commercial products containing a diversity of myco species? I keep hearing this claim, but would like to see some actual data to support it. Thank you.

I'm going to send them an email directly through their website today, as I haven't heard back.

2/6/2012 12:39:32 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Wouldn't a phone call be a little more direct?

2/6/2012 4:58:09 PM

Seattle, WA

Probably, however an email allows them to write a written response, which will allow me to accurately share the information and also avoids any misunderstandings on the phone.

You're welcome to pass on my contact information, they can email me directly at tad@kisorganics.com.

What's the point of having social media if you're not going to use it to interact with the general public?

Not really interested in a phone conversation anyway. I think my question was fairly succinct.

If you get a chance Tom, I'd still like to see the studies you eluded to at the start of this conversation.

Thanks,
Tad

PS: I'm surprised that some people in this thread seem more interested in defending RTI than freely researching and sharing information. Is this an RTI forum?

PPS: Tom, that comment is not direct at you, I appreciate what you've shared, as I learned something about propagules vs spores, though I'm not sure it's applicable when comparing myco due to certification laws across States.

2/6/2012 7:24:10 PM

i think the more you write the more you actually read your stuff and start beliveing what you write as fact tad wasnt to long ago compost tea had to made from a k.is.s brewer or what you sellto be good

2/6/2012 7:28:40 PM

Seattle, WA

Don,

What have I written in this thread that isn't true? Feel free to point that out to me, I'm more than happy to admit when I'm wrong.

And for the record, I've NEVER stated that aerated compost tea has to be made in a KIS brewer. If anything, I've gone out of my way in helping people that design their own so that they can be successful. I have articles that list proper aeration amounts and homemade recipes. I'd probably make a lot more money if I did promote my products better, rather than the technology of compost teas and biological horticulture. Please don't make false claims about myself or my company that are unsubstantiated.

Has anyone that uses RTI seen or shared a single study supporting any of their claims?

No giant pumpkin grower changes only 1 variable in their patch or uses different areas of their patch as controls. Therefore the statement, "I used Mykos and grew a personal best" really isn't helpful or tell us if the Mykos was an important variable, or even how it could fare against other companies mycorrhizal inoculants.

2/7/2012 12:25:25 PM

Seattle, WA

Or you can make your own Myco:
http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml

http://www.sparc.ars.usda.gov/research/projects/projects.htm?ACCN_NO=410449

Here's a relevant paragraph from this article also quoting David Douds:
http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml

"While the impact of the inoculums varies with the vegetable species, and is often masked by the high levels of native AM in our organically-managed soils, Douds has found significantly higher bell pepper yields, even in our high-phosphorus soil, with multi-species mycorrhizal inoculants. Unfortunately, other single species inoculums did not increase yields relative to the un-inoculated controls, leading Douds to conclude that some species are better matched to certain crop plants than others. For best results, a mix of species might be your best bet."

2/7/2012 12:57:51 PM

Madison,Wisconsin

Tad12, Did you ever get the research papers from Tom that showed the superiority of the RTI products. I would be very curious to see the results. I like to see discussions that are based on facts and supported by actual research.

2/7/2012 2:24:42 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Tad, no disrespect, but I don’t want this to become a pissing match between us but...
I will not post or share the reports that I have for a few basic reasons:
Although you claim that you do not benefit from supporting Mycorrhizal Applications, your father is in some way tied to them.
You take every opportunity to discredit RTI but refuse to contact them.
You want info from RTI, but you refuse to contact them via phone claiming that its their fault because they use social media, and continue to try to discredit them.
You state “You're welcome to pass on my contact information; they can email me directly at tad@kisorganics.com”...lmao, are you for real? Is there anything else that I can do to cater to you?

2/7/2012 4:22:25 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

You once stated that how a product works in the field was worth more than research (in so many words), but when you have many successful growers telling you that they have seen superior results, you go to great lengths to try to discredit RTI.
You have copied and pasted a great deal of the info on Mycorrhizal applications website, but this post has gone from trying to be informative to a witch hunt, I know you would like to drag it on until someone says "Yes Tad, Mycorrhizal Applications has a great product", well here it is: Yes Tad, Mycorrhizal Applications has a great product, Dr. Mike is one of the foremost experts in his field, but it doesn’t change the fact that Like hundreds of other growers, we feel that RTI is a better product, we have seen better results with it.
Did you ever stop to think that that the test results didn’t affect the manufacturer, but the reseller that could have made changes to the product? You preach a lot, but you have tunnel vision here.
I refuse to add fuel to your anti RTI campaign. Plenty of growers have the reports that I spoke about, I can tell you that I am not prepared to start a war with one of my competitors, I'm just not about sabotaging them, nor do I really want to keep beating this dead horse, and I think allot of growers are just flat out tired of reading your redundant posts.
I don't really know why you have a problem with RTI, but maybe you should really pick up a phone and call Neil Anderson and get all the info you need to satisfy you.

2/7/2012 4:22:49 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

**Greenhouse Grower, no disrespect, but you should know better than to ask me to start a pissing match here on BP, I won’t do that to RTI, Mycorrhizal Applications, Ken D, or my competitors, the last time this happened, the samples were questioned, then the labs were questions, then the test results were questioned, no matter what info or data is supplied, I don't think that certain people will be happy until they see the results that they want to.
Tad, I would suggest that you grow a few Giant pumpkins or Giant watermelons and test both products, but you are not a grower, I really don’t know what your agenda is, but let’s “keep it simple” If you don’t like the product, don’t purchase it, no one is forcing you to, but for God’s Sake….just let it go, we get it…you don’t like RTI.

2/7/2012 4:22:59 PM

Seattle, WA

Tom,

Wow, for someone who doesn't want a "pissing match," you sure made this personal. I'm posting INFORMATION. Like I've stated before, "Prove me wrong on anything I've written." The title of this thread was "Best Mycorrhizal Product." It seems that so many people have financial ties to RTI, that they are unwilling to hear anything contrary to what they want to believe. You made the statement that "RTI is hands down the best company on the market." and mentioned tests that you have failed to produce. Don't take it out on me for actually doing some research into whether that statement was true.

I did post on their facebook, and I also sent them an email. Why do I have to cater to them by calling them. I would like some written documentation showing results or data!

My father knows Dr. Mike, that is true. He has not spoken to him in years and they/we have no business relationship at this time. Keep searching for a hidden agenda, but you won't find one.

Just because I don't personally grow a giant pumpkin does not make me "not a grower." I grow a variety of other plants and firmly believe that science, not marketing or monetary gain should be involved in selecting the BEST products.

How about you re-read my posts. I never said I didn't like RTI. I stated that when I compare their product (strictly g. intraradices) I'm able to find others that contain either a higher diversity or species, OR other products that are also only g. intraradices but have significantly higher spore/propagule counts.

I never would have looked into things this far, if some of you on here hadn't jumped all over me and so blindly defended RTI without a single ounce of research being produced.

2/7/2012 5:08:05 PM

Seattle, WA

Personally, if I wanted g. intraradices I would use the Premier product found here:
http://www.usemykepro.com/mykepro-product-mycorrhizae/myke-pro-potato-l-specialty-crops.aspx

ACTIVE INGREDIENT:
         
ENDOMYCORRHIZAL (AM) FUNGI     (spores/g)
Glomus intraradices     2 000 000


It blows your RTI product out of the water, and it's listed as a spore count. What's your smart response to that?

2/7/2012 5:08:12 PM

Minnesota

Does this stuff work on pumpkins Tad? I have a dealer 5 miles from me, I might have to look into it.

2/7/2012 7:11:55 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

My point exactly Tad, still trying to prove that RTI isnt a superior product.
"It blows your RTI product out of the water, and it's listed as a spore count. What's your smart response to that?"
Its nice to see your true colors. I knew it wouldnt take long to shed the uber nice guy, I'm only helping you routine.
The post is indeed "Best Mycorrhizal Product", I'm thinking that this was probably asking growers opinions, not really meant to mean, lets see every last bit of data on the planet pertaining to mycorrhiza or Tad will go beserk...lmao.
"Why do I have to cater to them by calling them" well, I would say it is because you are the one asking for info on their product.
Whhhheeeewwww...Tad, didn't mean to get your knickers in a knot.
Once again, if you don't like it, don't buy it, you obviously have yet another source.

2/7/2012 7:13:21 PM

Seattle, WA

Tom,

You were rude to me, you've accused me of having a hidden agenda, and have yet to share any of the research or data that you keep eluding to. If you're going to be a smartass, then I'll give it right back to you.

I do now believe that RTI is absolutely not a superior product. Why? Because I actually did a little bit of research and didn't fall for any unsupported marketing claims.

I'm not going to call RTI. They can return my email or answer my facebook post. Or you can come up with some information since you obviously have a financial stake in this. Why don't you switch and carry the superior product from Premier for your customers? If you don't like my posts, you can ignore them. Maybe I'll start a new thread in the general discussion area on "why I think RTI is not the best myco product on the market."

Anytime you feel like actually addressing any of my questions or posting something of substance, feel free!

2/7/2012 8:26:59 PM

Seattle, WA

Richard,

The link I posted does work on pumpkins. It's EXACTLY the same species of mycorrhizal fungi that RTI Mykos contains, just with a much much higher spore count. By having a higher spore count, you increase the chance and efficacy of infection with you plant. You're looking at 2 million spores per gram in the Premier product versus only 80 spores per CC in the RTI product (which is roughly equal to a gram when measuring water, so even at the most favorable conversion rate leaves it well below).

2/7/2012 8:30:24 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Thanks Tad, like I just replied to one of your compost tea chat board buddies that just sent me hate mail.
RTI has worked great for most if not all of the World record growers for the past 7 years, and most growers using it are satisfied to get personal bests each year. Do you think for a minute that the majority cares where the spores come from?
I’ve tested Plant success, Mycorrhizal applications, and several others going back seven years, these were tested in my patch and in Don youngs patch (you must have heard of Don, several fruit over 1600 lbs), a real life test, not a bunch of data
Do you really think that I didn’t test these products?
You can type and make as many new post as you like, my questions is, if you have the better product, toss a pumpkin in the ground and put it to the test.
You say I have no basis for my backing RTI, I believe that the Pumpkin Growers think it is a great product, but in reality, you have nothing but data.....but again, no one said that RTI was the ONLY product, the question was asked on a Giant Pumpkin Chat board which mycorrhiza was the best, and the growers replied.
You feel compelled to prove that there is better out there, fine, prove away, the fact is, RTI is working and the best results in the coomunity as a whole have come from using RTI. I understand that you and your cronies don't want to accept that, several times I have acknowledged that and told you...if you dont like RTI, dont buy it, you cant seem to move past that.
If I give you a big cyber hug and tell you that you are the best, will you finally leave it at that?
I'm not saying that you dont have the bestest mycorrhiza out there, I'm saying and so are many others, that RTI have worked the best for the growing community.
I just dont know how else I can really put it.

2/7/2012 8:46:40 PM

Minnesota

Thank You Tad

2/7/2012 9:36:01 PM

Alaska

Tom.
You gave it your best and I'm sorry to say you did not pierce the void! The ACT crowd lives in an in vitro world and we the growers live in the in vivo world. It's a dazzle you with brilliance baffle you with bullshit approach. A very small group of two have been pushing this whole ACT concept very hard for about 10 years. Neither are accomplished growers both are excellent sales people. Since the initial push there have been a flood of people jumping on the band wagon trying to cash in. I know this post is about what's the best mycorrhiza and I believe it's a real proven entity. I just have a real problem taking advise from the ACT crowd who have made soooooo many false claims about a product they themselves can't prove. Instead they just keep rehashing the same talking points, boring! So I'm gonna leave it at that.

2/7/2012 11:17:39 PM

Seattle, WA

Scott,

Please share one of these "false claims" that I've made regarding ACT. This thread was about mycorrhizal fungi, it's unfortunate that you are making personal attacks about my credibility rather than addressing the actual information I've posted.

How do you know so much about me, considering I have no idea who you are? Who is this "group of 2" that is pushing the ACT concept? I assume you're including me in that. I am actually an avid gardener and grow many of my own vegetables. I spend the majority of my free time researching horticulture and plant science.

Regardless, my credibility doesn't really matter. What matters is the quality of information being posted. If I said something that was inaccurate or wrong, then by all means, please point it out to me so it can be corrected. Until you do though, I'm just going to assume that you can't and therefore have to make this about something other than the subject at hand (mycorrhizal products).

I'm not sure where you get your concept or definition of what ACT is and isn't, but it sounds like you might be a bit off-base. There was a study a few years back from Harvard University that incorporated compost teas. I can post the link online. There is currently one in the process at the University of Arizona. I'm happy to share my own direct microscopy or 3rd party lab testing.

2/8/2012 12:08:33 AM

Seattle, WA

Tom,

I can't control how other people view this thread. I'm sorry that you're getting hate mail, that was never my intention. I seem to be getting quite a bit of angry people just on this thread. I've sent you no personal emails, other than the request for that study you keep claiming to possess and asked me to send you an email about in one of your initial posts.

Please tell me more about how you tested all these myco products. Did you do any preliminary testing of your soil to see if there were any myco spores already existing in the soil? Were these side by side plots in the same soil, or successive years? How did you control for variables like soil porosity, watering techniques, nutrient schedules, plant genetics, weather conditions, etc....?

Testimonials are great, but they don't really tell us anything. Congratulations on a personal best, but how do you know that it was RTI's Mykos that contributed to it? How much heavier might your pumpkin have been if you'd used a superior product? Pumpkin growers have way too many variables in their patches to say that one product was the reason for their improvement season to season. Every grower I've met learns stuff in the off-season that they then incorporate into their patch. Maybe they learned to water more effectively, or possibly had better weather conditions?

How are we going to learn as a community if we can't share information and discuss/debate ideas in an open forum?

2/8/2012 12:22:02 AM

Glosta

My Chevy is better than your Ford and dodge, lol

2/8/2012 5:14:20 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

Although we can do with out the little digs now and then,(which is understandable)this is still a very interesting topic since the majority of us growers will be using Mychorr during this growing season which is approaching very quickly. Is there anybody else in the pumpkin growing community who can shed some light on this subject? I know Russ is a very intelligent man and knowlegable grower with alot of experience.Have you experimented with these products in the past Russ? Can you or anyone else help us out here?

2/8/2012 7:18:53 AM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I just scanned through this thread and I thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth.

Thad...Neil Anderson is very approachable. I would suggest you give him a call if you want to ask specific questions about his product.
RTI developed the specific strain of endo-mycorrhizae that the grow themselves and use in their product. It was developed specifically for Atlantic Giant Pumpkins and has been well proven by many top growers to work better than the other leading products on the market. Most growers here don’t have time to experiment with products that “might” be better. We grow a very few selected plants each year and have to look to what other successful growers are doing in order to help make the best decisions.
As far as time required for colonization, this is one of the reasons for extremely high doses of inoculant, very early in the season. Many growers are using the products as 10-20 x or more than the commercially recommended application rates.
My understanding about the use of trichoderma is that when the material is premixed with the mychorriza product is when problems arise with colonization (such is as the case with Michorrizal applications product). If using Root Shield in furrow along with a Mychorizal inoculant, it only improves effectiveness. This has also been proven by some very good growers.

2/8/2012 8:10:45 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Tad, my apologies for any digs, that was very unprofessional.
I'm done.

2/8/2012 8:33:56 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Well I guess after reading this topic it might be time for me to comment. You know sometimes I really wish Steve was still around. Back in his hey day this would have been a very interesting topic. I can see him and Doc going toe to toe debating this back and forth. LOL....

This brand of taste testing really makes it like Tomato, and Tomato. Growing results are so subjective IMO one really can't discern a measurable difference. The only way is to get root samples under a scope. Even then the difference in growing conditions and or enviromental factors may hinder and distort the findings.

Back in the day several growers myself included actually sent root samples to labs and had them viewed for evidence of Hyphae after 12 weeks from inoculation. I used two of the more popular brands previously listed above on three plants.

I collected 6 root samples harvested two each from the three plants using one plant as a control with no inoculation and 1 each of the competing brands. I brought the 6 samples two of each to a local university lab that specializes in plant development on muck soils. I was the only one who knew which samples and what myco product were used. Product samples were labeled A to F and were viewed under microscope by myself and a graduate student who was familiar with Myco colonization. Surprisingly only two of the six had evidence of Hyphae. I was hoping to find that 4 of the 6 would be the case.

2/9/2012 8:40:48 PM

Ontario, Canada.

At this point I offered the test samples to each of the two vendors. I asked them to partake in reviewing the root samples on the basis of not disclosing which samples were colonized. Sadly Only one vendor took up the offer. I waited a couple of weeks for the results. This vendor was able to correctly identify which samples were colonized.

Although this was largely unscientific and very arbitrary I made my decision to use RTI products. I did also consult with other popular growers who were testing as well. It was later confirmed to me at the time that similar results were found by others.

It is important to note that today's products may be vastly different then the ones I had tested. Unless proven otherwise my results are to be taken with a grain of salt as there were many pitfalls that could have skewed my findings. However I was confident in the integrity and sincerity of the the RTI folks. I'll stick by my original conclusion.

2/9/2012 8:41:07 PM

Simi valley, ca

Taking pumpkin weights to the next level ! Using the products that work or been proven to work will - get you a world record, and will win at your weigh-off < BUT if we are going to do more outrageous pumpkin growing ! Someone will do what Tad is doing , Maybe it will not happen in the next 10 yrs but someday someone will want to go even farther than winning a weigh off ! Improveing & finding better products will be the key !!! Iv used RTIs products , last yr i used close to 20 lbs on only 2 plants, & used them for a few yrs back as well , only did so so- my biggest weight gains were when i first grew & did not use any micor products , I even had a pumpkin grow 50 lbs over night ! 12-15 hours , without any added micor ,, Anyone wanting to grow that 2500 lber will need to think ahead farther than winning at next weighoff !!!

2/13/2012 10:03:52 AM

Simi valley, ca

If we are ever gonna get to the stars, It wont be with rocket fuel !! rocket fuel = 50,000 miles per hour !! Solar sail = 186,000 miles per second !!! but some day , 186,000 miles per second will not be enough and people will get tired of & want to improve on. I say keep looking ahead if you want to go higher !!

2/13/2012 10:20:23 AM

Simi valley, ca

It may never happen ! But if enough people were willing to test out other things than what wins the local weigh off , Bolt products could become obsolete !! If you suggested to use micor of any brand 25 yrs ago, how many people would have ? , Using RTI micor today = great idea !! Using RTI micor tomorrow ?? well ,maybe great idea ,,maybe not !!!!!!

2/13/2012 10:33:20 AM

Seattle, WA

I have to say that i'm a little disappointed with RTI in that they have yet to get back to me. They did respond to my original facebook post and I sent them an email, but never heard back. Since then, I've posted a few more questions, hoping to get answers.

Checked their facebook page out today and they had shared a picture of a cloned tomato plant that supposedly rooted in 2 days. To attribute that to their Mykos is just plain wrong, considering even the most generous of studies showing infection rates of 5-7 days (I've seen some that show upwards of 6 weeks). Regardless, there is no way a mycorrhizal product contributed to root growth in a clone in that amount of time. They should know that, even if the original poster didn't.
http://www.facebook.com/xtremegardening

2/22/2012 12:22:13 AM

Seattle, WA

Oh and for the record, it sounds like the Myke Pro product from Premier is prohibitively expensive.

I'm not saying RTI is a bad choice, considering it is quite inexpensive and you would want to do a cost/benefit analysis looking at spore counts between products.

Since I'm still convinced they're all getting their g. intraradices from Premier anyway (they hold almost all the patents on it, and the only other one is out of Japan), you can really just look at spore/propagule counts and then compare cost.

I would still like to see something that shows that single species myco is better than adding a diversity of species, as my own experience with ACT and nature in general is that it prefers diversity to monocultures.

Again, just sharing.....not trying to bring up another argument or discussion.

Cheers,
Tad

2/22/2012 12:26:31 AM

Seattle, WA

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12375134

This study supports the concept of using different myco species besides g. intraradices. I stumbled on it because the owner of RTI commented on my post saying that infection can occur in under 24 hours. I have yet to find anything to support that statement and everything I've seen states otherwise.

2/22/2012 7:43:52 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Tad, just let it go, it's over kill now.
We get it, you are a data junkie.
The questions was "I'm interested in which products provide the best value based on everyone's experience"
EXPERIENCE...... it's been answered.
I don't think many care where the spores come from, as growers, we want to know if it works, and it does.
You have a problem with RTI, your mission to disprove them is getting old.
You didn't even realize that the product you were recommending was $135.00 per 1.3 lbs until I told you?
Give it a rest now, we get it, there are products with higher spore counts, no affordable, but they do exist.
As far as your mission to discredit RTI, call them, dont just sit there and wait and blame it on them.
You say "I'm not saying RTI is a bad choice", but then say that they arent telling the truth...pick which side of the fence that you want to be on, your starting to sound like a politician.
Talk to Tim Wilson, he seems to agree with me on the single species discussion, I believe that you know him, unless you are ready to say that he is wrong too?
Stop beating this dead horse.

2/23/2012 2:02:30 AM

Seattle, WA

Tom, I thought we settled this, and I thought you were okay with the fact I was sharing INFORMATION.

I never had a problem with RTI, you're creating something that wasn't there. Look back over the discussion.

In fact, I just learned last night that RTI and Xtreme Gardening are different companies.

I never said that all the other Myco products are not affordable either. There are others mycorrhiza out there on the market that are affordable and contain the same species in higher spore count than Mykos.

How about this, I'll just start a new thread where I can share my information and you can choose to ignore it. I'll stop posting on this one.

Have a great day,
Tad

PS: Feel free to email me about what Tim Wilson agrees with you on. I do know him, though we don't always agree on everything I do respect his opinion.

2/23/2012 11:48:23 AM