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Ohio

I was reading this about the Soluble and by the looks of it, it doesn't seem that it will work by just using it as a drench, by the looks of this study you will need some kind of feeding needle carefully placed into the roots when applying.

Anyone ever use a feeding Needle? And if so can I get one for a 2 gallon sprayer?

http://www.planthealthcare.com/UserFiles/File/TechnicalBulletins_HortTurf/Surface%20Inoculation%20with%20VAM%20fungi%20Spores.pdf

12/20/2007 7:27:56 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Brooks I'm no expert here, just regurgitating what I read. I can't find the post but I remember docgipe posting something to the effect that the fungi spread out with the roots after being applied at transplant. I also read a newsletter from SNGPGA where Larry Checkon applied mychorrizae (granular) in the potting mix and again at transplant. I plan to do just that. I will also use the soluble mix as the plant grows drenching the area around the leaf node. The idea of applying the soluable mix with a feeding needle at this stage doesn't sit right with me.

I am prepared to be corrected on this matter. There seems to be different opinions on this subject.

12/20/2007 8:45:39 AM

Westford, MA

I seem to remember in 1 of the NHGVGA newsletters, Jim Beauchemin was giving a tour of his patch. In 1 of the pictures he showed his walking boards and predug vine trenches, with mychorrizae blended into the trench at regular intervals, or something to that effect.

12/20/2007 9:28:04 AM

southwest MO

How about spores verses propagules?? I though I read that propagules are much more effective and spores take up to 6 weeks to colinize... I've also read that "Mycorrhizal filaments can extend for several miles in a thimble full of soil." With those kinds of #'s I dont see why you would have to reinnoculate.
Alot of the products also contain a bio-stimulant... Whitch consists of many different things ... Some of them are or could be... Amino acids, Sea kelp, humic acids, Natural sugars, vitamins, folic acid, and biotin... Sounds like a complete organic fertilizer to me... I raise the question - How much are all these other goodies contributing when they are applied at every leaf knode and several pounds per plant??
Didn't mean to high jack your post Brooks but I have been wondering the same things myself...

12/20/2007 9:50:35 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I think you have touched on a very important point BG. If what you say is accurate, and I think it is, then why would subsequent innoculents be necessary?

12/20/2007 10:42:03 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Brooks, sorry I got this post going in a different direction than your question. Interesting topic.
Andy.

12/20/2007 11:41:38 AM

Somers, CT

Brooks, I also looked into the soluable and found no good reason for buying it at this time. I want it for seed starting and planting. Injecting soluable into the roots appears to be a pain. I may be wrong too. Anyone want to jump in, feel free.

12/20/2007 12:21:08 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Subsequent inoculants are necessary because most patches contain in excess of 50ppm. At these levels colonization begins to decrease. There are several studies which have determined this outcome. Its pretty hard to argue with the weight gains in the last two years.

Water Soluble spores can be applied through the sub surface using soak-er or sprinkler hoses. Another techhniques is to bring the roots to the surface using a removable ground cover. Boards that are left on the surface will soon accumulate roots underneath them. At this point they can be lifted up and then the roots can be reinoculated and recovered with soil or compost.

12/20/2007 12:56:29 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Sorry I forget to mention IN EXCESS Of 50PPM oF PHOSPHORUS

12/20/2007 12:58:25 PM

Ohio

Russ, what Im reading is using the Soluble is a waste of time at the sub surface of your soil by any type watering, since the Vam particles are so big, most soil wont let the paricles fall into the root zone.

12/20/2007 5:04:14 PM

Fairfield,ct.

what is a leaf node?

12/20/2007 5:07:50 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Leaf Node > the junction on a vine which produces a leaf stalk.

12/21/2007 9:24:05 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Brooks, consider that you would bury the hose under the soil running along the vine length using soak-er hose and or sprinkler hose. The spores could then be pre-tank mixed or pumped in using a Dosatron or gravity means. Using this technique the spores would be delivered directly into the root zone. I have researched this with the crew at Premier Bio Tech who supply a soluble myco mixture.

My PPM of Phos like most patches is higher than optimum for sustained long term colonization. Post reinoculating after vine root growth in this fashion may indeed be more cost effective than the broadcast trenching methods many growers are now using.

I tried a plant last year using a limited board mulch method and noticed a prolonged period of extended sink growth on one of my plants.

I have provided a link to the Premier Bio tech web site.

For more information you can contact.

Marc Beland
1 800 606-6926

http://www.usemyke.com/mycorise/

12/21/2007 9:39:35 AM

Mn

So would i be corect in saying that it would be good to incoulate the soil at the root nodes and in your potting soil(atplanting site)? Do i need to reincoulate the soil later in the season?

12/21/2007 1:41:26 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Conundrum in my mind...happens fairly regularly...if when burying the vines, as the new roots start to grow, if you water them in, with soluable myco, wouldn't the newly forming roots pick up the good stuff as they started to grow? I have not read the original info on this thread, so maybe I am wrong!!! Peace, Wayne

12/21/2007 6:54:28 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Here's my question. Would innoculating the soil around the planting area be sufficient? Would the mycorrhizia(sp?) spread, along with the increasing growth of the plant roots, an thereby colonize them?

12/21/2007 8:37:22 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

How ironic..I was talking with Dr. Rex Bastian (Phd from the Care of Trees in Wheeling, IL) today & we took a minute to speak about this subject.

His company only treats trees & then primarily with Ecto but the same treatment principles apply. They sometimes "verti-mulch" or "air spade" tree roots so as to make direct contact with the roots & also to add or replace low organic matter soil with better material. Rex feels it is better to feed soils so they can feed plants rather than just feeding the plants as was once done.

Since tree companies cannot dig up every tree they care for (to improve the soil) they almost always use soluble mycorrhizal inoculants that are injected into the root zone. We usually only sell them dry inoculants at planting or when vertical holes are drilled into the soil in which case the inoculant is added to an imroved "back fill soil" (usually compost based). The process of removing & replacing some of a trees soil is a laborious & costly task but it does pay off.

Rex does not advocate surface drenching with the injectible liquid forms since the inoculant dies if it is exposed to the sun. Likewise the spores & propagules are essentially filtered out of the water by the soil as it percolates down. Now if the roots (or NODES in our case) are exposed during to the liquid during the treatment then a good inoculation would be expected.

For the record, a 30% inoculation is considered a "success".

12/22/2007 12:28:49 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Doug, yes the fungi will spread out with normal root growth but with time colonization begins to decrease for several reasons most of which are listed above.

These are the reasons that many growers are reinoculating plants and have begun to aerate root zones.

One of the major factors everyone is overlooking is the reduced incidence of BES on fruit grown with these methods. This has become a revolution in growing techniques.

12/22/2007 12:04:02 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Russ, should reinoculation be done at the original planting site also, throughout the growth process??? Peace, Wayne
PS. I have high phos #'s...

12/22/2007 1:37:08 PM

Mn

reinoculation during season?....what is Bes?

12/22/2007 9:18:45 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Blossom end split.

12/22/2007 10:18:20 PM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

Doc told me that you only need the myco to touch one roothair and the colony will form. I put some in the soil when I plant the seed and then again put some in the hole when transplanting. I use a small gatorade bottle that has been made sunlight proof and I have drilled holes in the lid to apply like a shaker of salt. Putting at every node builds on the idea that when it touches a root hair it colonizes. Whether necessary or not? Not sure, but I do it most of the time instead of taking chances.

As for injecting? I would say that is based on the need for it to be out of the sunlight and also make contact with the roots. A soluble may not sufficiently penetrate the soil to make contact with the roots or may be killed by sunlight if not sufficiently out of the light.

12/22/2007 10:38:13 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Eric,

Granular or liquid, sunlight will harm the inoculant. So those of us how have to deal with high Phosphorus levels (160 lbs/acre +), reinoculating during the season is a real good idea if maximum benefit is to be had. Since digging up the roots is so injurious, keeping the inoculant out of the sun is very difficult without one of these (or similar):

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/product.asp?PG=713

So granular is the best bet for vine burying & the initial planting out. However a root injector with liquid is the best bet for in-season re-inoculation.

To do this properly & with minimum plant disturbance, the grower would be best off with a hydraulic tank sprayer.

I've often regretted selling my 150 gallon sprayer with it's 5HP Honda driven pump but storage & transport was a bit of a challenge. For 2008 I plan to integrate our 275 gallon irrigation tanks coupled with a 12VDC Shur-Flo pump to perform this task. We'll see how it works out.

12/22/2007 11:26:32 PM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

Steve I must be confused. According to the article Brooks posted and per discussion with the manufacturer of the myco I purchased (same as that the Wallaces use), sunlight is detrimental to the beneficial fungi. Am I misunderstanding you or them or both?

12/23/2007 1:22:38 PM

Mn

couldn't you just take a presurised hand sprayer and stick the nozel into the ground?

12/23/2007 3:21:33 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Eric,

I am in complete agreement. Indeed we are the largest New England distributor for PFC who authored the article that Brooks posted. ALL mycorrhizal inoculant must be kept out of the sunlight & must make direct contact with roots (or root nodes) in order to be effective.

HOW the inoculant is delivered (liquid or granular) is irrelevant. The key is to get it INTO the soil where the roots are or will soon be. Broadcasting granules or just drenching a liquid will both have the same bad effect: dead spores & propagules.

You probably could (carefully) jam a compressed air sprayer nozzle into the soil all along the secondaries, etc, but it would take a LONG time to do a decent job.

The trouble isn't in delivering inoculant to young plants or new secondary vines. Burying granular inoculant with a seedling or while burying secondaries is easy to do. But in our very high Phosphorus soils we expect some mycorrhyza to die as the season progresses. Re-inoculating a fully rooted plant is the challenge regardless of the product used. Great care is needed to get the inoculant in contact with the roots without causing injury to the roots.

The temptation to simply drench a liquid or broadcast granules is hard to avoid but won't deliver the desired results.

12/23/2007 9:34:31 PM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

Ok, got it. I deliver them all directly to the root zone by sprinkling just before covering the node with soil.

As an FYI, I read your first post to say sunlight would do no harm. I just reread it and see my error. Thanks again Steve.

12/23/2007 9:53:47 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Another way to think about this is, when burying vines the grower should treat every leaf node as a single plant in itself. Give each node the TLC you would the main plant when setting it out. Then develop a way to deliver a booster shot of myco at mid season without to much root zone disturbance and you should have a monster fruit by the fall.

There are really only a few ways to reinoculate.

1. Direct injection
2. Removable mulch, drench and recover
3. Underground hose lines either drip, soak-er or sprinkler.
4. Aeration and top-dress.

12/24/2007 7:09:51 AM

Mn

would drip hoses filter out the fungi our are the openings big enough?

12/24/2007 2:48:06 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Fungi spores are as little as a few microns. One micron = one millionth of millimeter.

12/24/2007 4:15:45 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Sorry correction should read one thousandth of a millimetre.

12/24/2007 4:20:34 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

What if the inoculation took place at night?, would the success rate be any better? If a spray was attempted?

12/28/2007 11:01:37 AM

Ohio

Im going to use the granular like I always have and experiment with the soluable next year, I think using the granular first when buring the vines worked like a charm. Im also going to try the soluable after the roots get going at each node, I think by just putting the nozzel of your sprayer in the ground a inch or two will work. Its expensive stuff but worth every penny

12/28/2007 1:24:37 PM

Midwest

This is a great post. Can you also comment on the use of fungicides ? I did a search for mycorrhazae (mycorrhizal)_and fungicides and read the post by Tremor. Thanks Steve for the PHC list. I've read several other articles on the subject and we all could be wasting our time and money innoculating the soil while using systemic fungicides. Using systemics seem to force us to use the above techniques to re-apply Mycorrhazail fungi at an even greater rate. Even at a higher rate, commonly-used fungicides like Banner, Banner-Max, etc... are fungistatic or growth inhibiting. This is a problem. We seem to be limited to use contact fungicides that are less effective on leaf and air-borne diseases? Comments?
Greg

1/3/2008 4:48:58 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Dave Stelts & I had this very conversation at Niagara last March. He decided that controlling diseases was more important than growing desirable soil fungi/mycorrhizae. If we use his past few years results to judge then we have our answer.

Beneficial soil microbes are a great thing to cultivate & will help ALL patches.

However if one must decide between live soil microbes or live pumpkin plants then the choice is simple.

We can reinoculate soils with beneficial microbes in a couple hours. Yet it takes 5+ months to get a fruit on the scale.

1/3/2008 8:28:14 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Let me add to that.

Dave had to make a soil drench with Thiophanate-methyl to keep his plants productive. This killed mycorhizae which is easier to reintroduce than the pumpkins. 1100+ versus 1500+.

Other folks might only need to make foliar treatments of less injurious fungicides so soil microbes will go unmolested.

Every situation calls for it's own unique prescriptive therapy.

1/3/2008 8:40:20 PM

southwest MO

Thank you Tremor... That was a huge piece of information...

1/4/2008 9:24:34 AM

Midwest

I assume that mycorrhizae was stunted after he applied the fungicide but not killed completely. So, it grew back. So, prescribing a therapy for disease shouldn't take into consideration the beneficial microbes that we are trying to cultivate. We believe one of the keys to grow bigger pumpkins is to cultivate the very thing we're killing.

1/4/2008 1:13:03 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Steve has it right every situation is different. Re-inoculation of endo trichoderma during the season is thought in some research to be able to trigger the plants defence mechanisms and boost its defence against not only the soil borne diseases but powdery mildew too. Endo Mycorrhizea have also been noted to reduced the production of ethylene and slowing the progression into senescence. These little spores are indeed a revolution to competitive growers every where. Is it any wonder why growers are breaking records by leaps and bounds. There is simply little room for debate inoculations work in many ways. A booster shoot during the summer will help to lengthen your growth curve.

1/4/2008 9:08:27 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

This is all extremely useful information. I just read the December SNGPG newsletter, McKie 1631 facts by Dan and Jason McKie. They used mycorizzal fungi at every leaf node during vining stage and re-innoculation in early September. That's good enough for me.

1/4/2008 10:08:37 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

We'll be using Bio-Grow Endo Plus this year. This re-innoculation thing has me intrigued, but the method to accomplish it is still fuzzy. Here goes more money!

1/4/2008 10:39:15 PM