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Sacramento, CA

I have seen a couple discussions about worms being good for the soil. Do folks add worms? or are they just attracted to our great soil? Is this something that folks do in the fall or during the season?

6/27/2006 11:51:25 AM

Ca

Both. They are attracted to the soil and some growers add them. I'm not sure when most growers add worms. I guess it would be better for the worms if you did some time before or after tilling. Tilling can really chop them up sometimes if they are near the surface. Worms really help to break down the soil in the offseason and they help areate the soil with their tunnels. On a plus side Worm poop is great stuff. I have a Worm Composter because of this. I made about 100 pounds of pure worm poop over the winter. I used a lot of it for six tomato plants. They are my best looking tomato plants. I also used a little with some of my pumpkin plants.

6/27/2006 12:39:27 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

OK....I like worms & recognize their benefit to poor soils but I'm will to play devil's advocate once in a while. LOL

Worms are not native to North America & are illegal to move or introduce in some areas as they are considered (by some) to be an invasive species.

6/27/2006 2:15:34 PM

President - GPC

So Tremor how does one know that worms were not Native??....seems to me they are pretty much everywhere, are not the fastest of creatures.....Oh well Ill take that one back cuz I have hunted the mighty night crawler.....lol.
I like worms....I feed em and they feed my garden....they aerate and cultivate my soil.....If one has lots of worms one has some kick butt soil....and pet robins. PS yes I do spike my garden with rare earth worms that didnt get drowned or ate in the river......

6/27/2006 2:40:41 PM

Follansbee, Wv

I have to disagree with you Steve. Many worms were native to North America up until the glacial age. South of the glacial boundries, native worms still exist.

6/27/2006 4:10:52 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

This isn't my personal opinion. I just agreed to play devil's advocate.

I did paint that opening line with too broad a brush.

We still have some native worms but they aren't a major element in the ecosystem either. I suppose that how a person feels about earthworms depends on where they live & what impact the imports have had on the local environment.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index.html

If we focus only on range-lands & prairies then Earthworms must look like God's gift to gardeners. But if we look to the destruction to some of our Northern forests then perhaps a different opinion will arise.

http://www.sciencenetlinks.com/sci_update.cfm?DocID=53

Since man wasn't around in North America to witness the last ice age & since colonial Europeans didn't take an inventory 400 years ago, we'll probably never really know which Earthworms are really native. But for sure the Europeans far outnumber everything else & their voracious appetites have made a major impact on forestry in some parts of the US.

6/27/2006 9:41:06 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Here is some data I was looking for earlier.

http://www.greenprints.com/EarthwormsGoneBad.pdf

Amy Stewert has done some good research on how native ferns & other herbaceous plants have vanished from parts of the Adirondacks & Minnesota forests as was found to also be the case in New Zealand.

She identifies the forests that evolved for 10,000+ years without earthworms that are now being degraded by the lack of forest floor litter & duff that the worms are eating as fast as it falls. It's a very interesting read for me since I've always enjoyed the science of forest evolution.

Of course forcing wolves into extinction has done far more damage to our local forests here in New England.

6/27/2006 10:01:06 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Tremor, I read the article and while it makes a good point, I know you're playing devil's advocate, and I have some problems with it. Mainly, the article is misleading in the sense that they are really talking about the Canadian night crawler and it's introduction into the US where it has no rightful place. No distinction is made between the night crawler and the average small redworm. There is not a scientist in this world that would despute that some species of "worm" exists basically everywhere. I myself have always acknowledged the problem of dumping wasted catfish bait into the soil and I always throw my unused worms in the trash bag.

6/27/2006 11:47:47 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Agreed....I won't debate or deny the benefit we get in our Pumpkin patches & compost piles. Amy Stewart is speaking to a specific condition caused by a specific "invasive species" that has caused a "local" situation that is a very serious threat to a valuable ecosystem.

This is sort of like Oxygen. We can't live without it. But we can't live on it exclusively either.

Canadian Nightcrawlers (a marketers term for Lumbricus terrestris) or dew worms (while also not even native to Canada) aren't as advantageous as Red Worms in the compost pile. But they do a great job of opening some soils to improved aeration & drainage, etc. They also work to convert organic material into organic matter very quickly. Too quickly some allege which throws some soils out of their natural balance.

Here....I'll throw out another controversial position just to keep the debate going.

continued

6/28/2006 10:12:59 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Earthworms proliferate in good high-organic soils. So do pumpkins. Do the pumpkins benefit from the worms by the conversion of organic material toward humic acids as much as they would if the organic materials were to decay by bacteria & fungi alone?

In other words, do earthworms do as much to improve soils as bacteria & fungi? Some "compost experts" claim that bacteria & fungi alone are better "soil builders". These folks are alleging that worms take disproportionally to what they give back in terms of fungi richness.

I'm going to wager that the bait-worm breeders, vermi-composters, compost tea brewers, innoculant sellers, etc all have an agenda that is biased directly toward their own bank account & real world soil science & agronomy principals can be darned. LOL I've heard it at trade shows a million times: "Here, I'll package this stuff with your companies name & directions for use & you sell it at 70% profit. Just don't say anything bad about it OK? wink OK?"

Perhaps an avid Compost Tea user can enlighten us in this area. Is a high fungi soil better for pumpkins or is high bacteria better?

I'm not trying to irk anybody. Just trying to get folks to think, find & share info. Good winter fodder anyway.

A brain, once forced to work never returns to normal.

6/28/2006 10:13:04 AM

Sacramento, CA

Boy , I really opened a can of.... oh I can't even write it.

6/28/2006 11:35:07 AM

ValleyField Quebec

Orangeneck
"Mainly, the article is misleading in the sense that they are really talking about the Canadian night crawler and it's introduction into the US where it has no rightful place. No distinction is made between the night crawler and the average small redworm."


there is 4400 named species of earthworm on this planet but the two species that we are talking about is the Anecic worms and the Epigeic species.
Lumbricus terrestris (canada Night crawler) is part of he Anecic species is not native to canada, but was introduced, by Europeans, most northern states have Lumbricus terrestris living in them, like Tremor said there called dew worms and most people think there different worms but there both Lumbricus terrestris. This variety is the most studied of all earthworms and most sold to farmers and gardeners. They are very important for soil improvements and are widely raised for that purpose. They like to tunnel in the soil, sometimes 3 feet deep. They come to the surface foraging for organic matter, which they take into their burrows. They mix sub-soil with their food and deposit their castings on the surface. Their burrows aid in soil aeration and allow for better water penetration.

6/28/2006 1:49:56 PM

ValleyField Quebec

Now for the red worm (Lumbricus Rebellus or Eisenia Foetida) is part of the Epigeic species. Some people call them "red wigglers," or "manure worms." Fishing suppliers may call them "red hybrid," "dungworm," or "striped worm." . Lumbricus Rebellus and Eisenia Foetida there natural habitat is in soils which contain a lot of organic matter. they live near the surface, lets say 1.5lb (about 1000 worms) will eat there 1lb a day and breed fast then rabbits, with 1000 worm in the spring, you could have 100 000 by the end of the summer. Now this traits are great for composting but Lumbricus Rebellus and Eisenia Foetida this is what impacts our forest so much, because they eat and breed so fast, there just doing there job. Orangeneck "he average small redworm." are not angels like you implied but they do great for the ecosystem when put in the right place.

6/28/2006 1:50:10 PM

Long Island,New York

So then what kind of worms did Weezer have?

6/28/2006 2:13:54 PM

Montoursville, PA

Fuctional facts that we can understand easily might indicate that when you build either the soil or the compost the proper worm automatically appears,in the proper number to do it's job. When it's job is done it dies yeilding it's protein, to the bio-mass and others move in, to continue doing what worms do. If they do not there is a bigger problem perhaps unknown.

The growing medium for red wigglers, poop worms if you will is just that a poop medium. They will not, live in any mass without the elements, of raw poop to work on.

Your common worms sometimes simply called gray worms can not and will not live where the red worms are happy.

The Canadian Nightcrawler is a gray worm. There are worms in the tropics that dwarf any worm ten fold, in size compaired with any worm we see, in our climates.

Those who feel raw manures should only go on or into the soil during the fall preceeding the fall cover crop will introduce the red worms, to the patches. They will work where placed as long as raw manure elements are available. By spring when the cover crop is turned under only gray worms will be there unless the mass froze up and conversions could not take place. At any rate the red worms will die off, for lack, of proper medium as the conversions turn the soil into being that which the gray worms live in.

The inverse is also true. If good soil is over laden with manures the greys will die off or just leave. Of course this is the soil that is not soil. In this condition it is holding, to much raw manures and reverts, to some form of working compost. Then I guess some would say red worms are in my soil. Wrong! In this instance redworms would be in your poop..... a part, of neither good soil or finished compost.

There is not a heck, of a lot more, to say although if you work into the discussion all the Biological knowledge that is available you would have about two pounds, of paper you likely would not read anyway.

6/28/2006 2:38:01 PM

ValleyField Quebec

if you want to do vermi-composting then red worm are the ones you want.

6/28/2006 2:40:54 PM

Ca

I think problems with worms is a regional thing as with most pests. It's to dry and hot in this region in the summer for worms to eat the forest floor up. I love my worm poop and what it does to my plants. So i guess you can say I'm pro worm. lol

6/28/2006 2:49:07 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I'm glad that Matt opened the worm can. Spirited debate is the best way to learn more about subjects that are important to us.

Good stuff here...it looks like hamj knows worms.

No doubt about it Turken. Worms are only a problem is regional pockets. More than 90% of my State's old growth trees were cut for the King's Royal Navy over 300 years ago. So whatever impact that introduced worms might have had on our old growth forests is irrelevant today.

To us Suburban & Rural Giant Pumpkin growers, 90% of the worms we find are doing good work for us & are a welcomed addition to the patch.

6/29/2006 2:24:07 PM

Sacramento, CA

So... wait, i got lost in the debate... should i add worms to my patch now?

6/29/2006 2:44:07 PM

ValleyField Quebec

Yes you should Matt, now here is how to get them, cut you lawn short, get your self a head lamp, wait until its been dark out for an hour. I like to crawl on the grass i find it easer, flash your head lamp just right in front of you, but don't move it around to much. Now here is the trick, don't look right in the brightest part of the light but the light fall off around the bright part, and you be amazed at how meny worms are on your lawn. You'll see the head of the worm when grabbing it don't grab the head, try to grab as close to the hole as you can and then squeeze and pull, squeeze and pull, there sometimes hard to get out. If you feel you don't have a good grip just let it go, there is a lot more out there. one more thing there fast and feel you, try not to touch the grass around them or there gone, so move slow. In about a hour i can catch 400+ worms this way

6/29/2006 4:34:57 PM

San Jose garysand@pacbell.net

Red worms do not just eat poop, they eat any decaying organic matter. I have red worms every where, I have some in a pile that we throw all our kitchen fruit and veggie scraps, then I have them in a compost pile, with leaves and my weekly lawn clippings. I have the little red guys all over my patch, helping to break down the leaves and manure that I put in last fall. If OM is ever depleted in the patch they will die off

I say put them into your patch Matt, I don't think they can hurt any garden

6/29/2006 4:42:39 PM

Sacramento, CA

hamj-

If I follow your proceedure, exactly what do I do about the laughter of neighbors and my wife as she takes pictures?

Perhaps there is a store I can purchase them at, pre-caught?

Matt

6/29/2006 5:18:35 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Matt,
Get yer soil in order, the worms will come to you.

6/29/2006 6:45:43 PM

ValleyField Quebec

Matt I'll tell you something it can't be as bad as me, it was just after a rain (best time to catch worms) I had my camo neopren waders on, head lamp and crawling around the front lawn when the hot neighbor from next door walks by and with a big smile on her face asked what i was doing? Man that was a aquward situation, I've never search for worms on the front yard again.

6/29/2006 7:07:48 PM

Montoursville, PA

I have a couple, of kids picking night walkers, night crawlers if you will. They are delighted to get a couple of bucks a pint, for them. Actually they are very easy, to find and pick here,in my own yard and patch. I just get a kick out, of givng small cash rewards, to kids that are officially, on my worm team, to help grow the giant pumpkin. I made an official pumpkin worm team reward certificate on which we list a rough count times three or four for the natural reproduction. It suggests that a pint will bring a thousand to the patch over the course of the summer. With all of this fun the majority still are the smaller gray worms, of numerous categories which I can not name if you paid me, for the information.

One thing I am sure of, with all the worms and various worm counts as the season warms up and then cools, the casts they leave have, to be worth a hundred bucks or so if they had, to be purchased and placed, in the patch. The second thing I am sure, of is that the total soil condition improves dramatically with increased organic content, in the patch that supports the worm population.

Another factor I am dead set on is the fact that the total biological package from bacteria, to higher forms, of life like nematodes and worms can not be picked apart and weighed or counted. One grain of soil has been estimated to contain a million fungi spores most which are not even named. The same is true, of all of those life forms depending, on overall health and soil temperature and moisture.

Everything one puts in or on the soil has to be considered as either good or bad, for the soil. One of the best ways, to determine, that is the worm presence or lack, of presence.

6/29/2006 10:25:23 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Ditto Tom.

Simply dumping worms into your soil won't help much if the soil can't support them.

The common earthworm can be found in large numbers at the bottoms of piles of wet leaf litter. These are usually juveniles, but will grow quickly. They do not breed nearly as fast as redworms, so you will need many more of them to make an impact quickly.

If you really want to utilize the benefits of worms, I would suggest vermicomposting. Redworms breed very quickly in a controlled environment, and can produce a large amount of castings very quickly.

However, if your looking to add worms to your patch, you must ensure the soil is in good order. Like Tom said, get your soil in order and the worms will come to you...if the type of worm your looking for is in the area.

I have read research that states castings contain more microbes than before the worm ate it. As far as bacterial, or fungal based compost, my opinion is that bacterial based compost is better. Most fungies do not survive the intense heat of an aerobic compost pile. Of course, once the pile cools, any cellulose material left over will be broken down by fungi. Another reason I believe bacterial based is better is because many of the bacteria found early in a compost piles developement are also naturally found in the topsoil. Of course, once the pile heats up these are replaced by thermophilic bacteria. As the pile cools, the mesophilic bacteria return. It's also the high tempratures of a bacterial pile that help destroy pathogens. I'm sure that fungal decomposed compost has its uses, but for the average gardener I think bacterial is better.

6/30/2006 6:48:13 AM

Montoursville, PA

The last post above is one of the best posts I have seen posted in terms most of us can understand. I would add that some feel nature has designed the demise of the pathegons at temperatures just a bit below temperatures that kill your good "everything".

My sources and memory indicate that 115 degrees to 120 degrees will do this job if the temperature can be maintained that high for several days. That would be the goal I have never achieved....earlier because I did not know how, to push temperature that high and now because I do not have the health and body (meaning me), to work the piles, into their higher temperatures.

Oh how I wish my property would support some equipment that would!

7/13/2006 10:59:01 AM