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Abbotsford, B.C

I was wondering about something. Sometimes when it rains a lot, water soaks through the blankets I have over my pumpkins (unfortunately I don't have many tarps) and soaks the pumpkins with water. When you look at a pumpkin that has been soaking in water for a while, it has that moist feel to it, and even if you take a dry towel to wipe it away, the skin is still wet when you take it away, even if you rub a quite thoroughly. Now why would that be unless the fruit has actually absorbed some of that water through it's skin? And if it is soaking through the pumpkins skin, wouldn't that be adding weight to the fruit? I know that the downside of having the pumpkin wet is that if kept wet for a while, chances of rot increase. What do you think of the feasibility of say 'watering' your pumpkin day at about 12 to 2 o'clock, by having the hose turned on dripping water onto the pumpkin (warm water would be preferable)? Then at the end of two hours you could turn on a fan and dry off the water on the skin on the pumpkin, so that by night-fall the pumpkin's skin is perfectly dry. As long as your pumpkin is on a fabric that does not hold water (so the pumpkin isn't sitting in water), than chances of rot would be minimal. Probably if you were to try this it would be best to keep the stem area dry, as it is more susceptible to rot than any other part of the pumpkin, but on the whole, if the fruit really did absorb a lot of water through it's skin, this could be a good way to increase weight gains. What do you think?

Cameron

10/10/2005 5:10:20 PM

Abbotsford, B.C

Anyone?

10/12/2005 9:02:04 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Just as a fruit loses moisture it to can gain moisture. I would say a very small amount can be absorbed. It would be interesting to place a pumpkin in a controlled enviromental chamber and measure the amount it can absorb. I can see the lines at the weigh offs now with the big bulk tanks holding our pumpkins.

10/12/2005 9:49:42 PM

Montoursville, PA

Few pay any attention, to this uttering, but here goes again: There is a reversal twice in each twenty four hour period. At about 4PM the pumpkin and the leaves begin, to move food ,towards the roots. During these hours the specialized bacteria supported, by the roots, cooks up dinner, for the pumpkin. This dinner is moved back, to the pumpkin when the reversal takes place. The flow or pressure moves towards the roots until about 8AM where in the roots move the pressure or flow towards the pumpkin. This is not a valve opening and closing or switch throwing event. Some feel it is light controlled. Others feel it may be associated with the tides, of the world oceans.

You can observe this reversal when your pumpkin has been sweating. Poof about 4PM the sweat goes away...back into the pumpkin with some evaporation, for sure.

Any product that can be absorbed will be absorbed, for this reason. It would therefore be deducted that soaked towels and spraying, of the fruit between 8 AM and 4 PM would be fruitless unless surface PH would be affected, in a positive manor. Later in the day from about 4 PM until 8 AM the following morning the pressure or flow is right for absorbing that which can be absorbed.

Most if not all food for the pumpkin's growth and the canapy maintenance is processed, in a tiny zone, around the root created, by the plant's root system. It stands to reason there has, to be directional flow both ways, to maintain the specialized bacterial action, in this tiny root zone. The fungi in association with the roots also move water and nutrients, to these root zones, for processing, by the specialized bacteria. When these bacteria are hindered by stress, salts or other poisons the plant can not grow. If the stress lasts to long the plant or parts of the plant will weaken. Pathegons designed to destroy the sick plants are signaled to attach and all kinds of breakdown occurs.

10/12/2005 11:14:44 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Interesting read doc, but raises a question for me. If night time flow is away from fruit and towards roots...how come the majority of fruit growth seems to come at night? No disrespect meant, just curious. Peace Wayne

10/13/2005 6:38:23 AM

Utah

maybe few pay attention because it doesn't sound completely logical. Some part do but some don't.
for example ...
the tides ? ! the tides are constantly changing ... Tides are created by the gravity from the Moon pulling on water in the oceans of the earth. High tides from one day to the next are about 40 min. later, because it takes the moon 24 hours and 40 minutes to make on revolution around the earth. so how could fuild flow in a root/vine/pumpkin system that occur every day between 4 pm and 8 am have anything to do with the tides ?

how about the roots/vine/pumpkin system transfers "dinner" back and forth by osmosiss and diffusion between the adjoining cell in the structure ?

Cameron- I agree with what Shannon said. I believe you could get some absorbing but not very much.

I first thought of this this very subject when I was at the store buying a cantelope.
... have you ever picked up a water soaked cantelope that weighed about twice as much as a non water soaked one?
yes they were charging by the lb.

10/13/2005 9:26:49 AM

Montoursville, PA

My only answer is based on simplicity. We just do not know the detailed truths, of biology and how it relates, to stronger plant and better more healthy growth. We do know some, of the reasons the biology can be disrupted, crippled or completely wiped out. We do not even know why some plants work like the pumpkin's nightime growth.
....Through this rough understanding we know that even airborn nutrients can be absorbed and delivered, to the root bacterial zone, for use and/or processing.
....I could only guess that, in absolute truth, the flows or pressures could be multi directional all the time. Perhaps, by the mystery, of life, the elements, of growth, firming up or strengthing, take place after the placement or acceptance into the sink or fruit. We only know that growth takes place or does not take place by total observation. Only sometimes can we know the the reasons.

10/13/2005 10:28:05 AM

Montoursville, PA

One thing we do know absolutely. We can not apply science by the numbers, to get, the answers. Science has never created any synthetic that replaces, creates or supports life. This is not to say that synthetics do not excite life. The life excited is weak and poorly structured within the total plants and this is why the pathegons and harmfull insects receive a biological signal, to attack the weakened plant. Nature using biology is designed, to destroy, the weakest and support the strongest. While biology may remain mysterious it is, in fact that, only biology will selectively create it's own needs, to right any wrong. Trying to pick apart the process with words will not ever be easy. Becoming aware, of total processes is hard enough but always worthy, of intellegent thought.

10/13/2005 10:44:30 AM

Follansbee, Wv

Seeing these comments about "Dinner" being transfered to and from the roots makes me wonder if we have all forgotten 8th grade biology class. Does anyone remember the term photosynthesis? Let's have a brief review shall we?
Photosynthesis occures in two stages. The first stage involves sunlight striking leaf surfaces that contain chlorophyll. This causes certain reactions to occure and the formulation of certain compounds. These compounds are not food itself, but the materials needed to produce food.
During the dark cycle carbon dioxide is drawn from the air and used to make carbohydrates (utilizing the products manufactured during the daylight phase). Hmmm, carbohydrates, sounds like energy to me, especially after being broken down into glucose. Now we have food, in the leaves, being dispersed via an osmosis like action.
The roots do not supply food to the plant. The roots supply water and mineral elements needed to make chlorophyll and cellular structural components.
Why do sick plants turn yellow? Because something is disrupting the chlorophyll manufacturing process. Many things could be at fault, a lack of water or oxygen or any of the minerals needed to produce chlorophyll. The plant then starves to death.

Now to the subject of fruit absorbing water. I believe pumpkins can absorb some amount of water. The problem is, where is the water going? Is it being incorporated into the actual cells of the fruit? Or is it merely infiltrating between the cells? If it's the latter, then water-logging a fruit would be disasterous, since eventually cellular cohesion would break down.

I know what some people are probably thinking...I'm just a first year newb, what do I really know about pumpkins. But we are not just talking about pumpkins here. I have been gardening for a long time. I may not know much about pumpkins, but I know how plants grow.

10/13/2005 11:27:33 AM

This is very interesting! Good work guys! I know my one pumpkin that went deformed had these kind of dips were water would pool. After a day or two, this pool of water in the dip would get this jelly like form in it. There was no funny stuff added to it, it just naturally turned into this jelly liquid stuff. Eventually it disappeared, most likely from evaporation, but it kind of made me wonder what was that?

10/13/2005 12:51:50 PM

Abbotsford, B.C

That's what I noticed too, Kyle. The fruit sort of became softer and eventually all of the water disappeared, somewhere. You know what I think, what if water is being absorbed through the tiny cracks that appear on the pumpkin skin? If you have ever dipped a new female blossom in water, it obviously doesn't absorb water, the water runs right off. But once the skin matures more it seems to have a higher propensity to absorb water. But then, if it really is absorbing water, like MontyJ said, is it going inbetween the cells or into the cells? My tendency would be to think that it is going into the cells. The membranes in the cell walls absorb certain compounds, and one of those compounds is water. How will the cell walls know whether the water came through the stem or through the skin? Just my thoughts, any other comments? This is getting interesting.

Cameron

10/13/2005 1:10:58 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Here is another point. If the water is, in fact, entering the cells themselves, how much water can they take before rupturing the cell walls and creating a soft spot on the fruit?

10/13/2005 2:30:14 PM

Abbotsford, B.C

I would imagine that it would probably be a lot. Would the cells keep absorbing water if they are already full and about to burst? But probably this is a question you would need a cell biologist to answer.

Cameron

10/13/2005 2:55:26 PM

Montoursville, PA

Kyle........your jelly like substance was caused, by your good soil fungi cleaning up rotted roots or other organic substance rotting due, to the water and lack, of oxygen. This goes on underground all the time. Sometimes the gooey substances surfaces, on the soil. Sometimes it takes place inside the root, rises, to the higher levels, of the plant. Sometimes vines break down and actually bubble and hiss, from exiting gases and liquids created, within the process. It is like the process, by which impurities are seen called mother and gases excaping, from a vat, in the wine making process.
....Many times, in the soil, the good fungi prevail, clean up the problem and we never have the joy, of seeing or knowing that our good fungi are at work for us.

10/13/2005 6:16:47 PM

Montoursville, PA

I missed the relationship...your goo was the same but in much smaller scale. Your good fungi cleaned it up and averted a rotten spot. On the surface as you described it was the plant and biology, of the total working, to avert a bigger problem.

10/13/2005 6:29:38 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Cudos to Professor Monty (LOL) for the refresher course. The only problem with the lesson was that it brought back memories of my 8th grade biology teacher, which brought shivers to my spine and a sick feeling to my stomach. Me thinks, and hopes that the learning process will never end. Peace Wayne

10/13/2005 10:38:17 PM

Follansbee, Wv

"Would the cells keep absorbing water if they are already full and about to burst?"

Well, if I understand tugor and osmosis correctly, they would not. If I remember right (and it's been a long time since the eigth grade) once water pressure inside the cell equals that outside the cell, osmosis will stop. So that leads me back to where does the water go? To enter the cell, the water would have to be against the cell wall, which means the water that is leaking into the fruit through the micro-fisures in the skin is most definately infiltrating between the cells first. Once the cells have absorbed all they can, where does the excess water go? And something else that just occured to me...if you are flooding the cells with tap or rain water, wouldn't you be denying them the food the plant is manufacturing for them? I mean, if the cell is full of tap water, it won't be able to absorb the nutrient rich fluid the plant is producing.
Now here is another interesting situation...is it possible that some splits occur because of excess water pressure within the fruit itself? In other words, once tugor is reached, and osmosis stops, water is still moving through the plant. If water is still being pushed into the fruit, and the cells can absorb no more, wouldn't the excess begin to build up between the cells and create pressure? That almost sounds logical, since a large number of splits happen after a heavy rain, or accidental over-watering. If that is the case, wouldn't you be increasing your chances of a split by watering the fruit and thereby removing the cushion of protection?

10/14/2005 8:23:38 AM

Abbotsford, B.C

Good thoughts Monty! I have another thought though; you mentioned that if the cells were being pumped full of water, it might deny the plant of the nutrient rich fluid the plant is creating. I wondering if it would actually be possible to soak the plant in this fluid then? You could take all of your small culls and squeeze them to get their juice out, and then fashion it so that it can be spread onto the fruit several times a day. The only difficult thing about this would be to have enough fluid to make the idea practical.

About the excess water idea, that makes tons of sense! If it really was excess water coming into the fruit that causes the fruit to split, then the solution to the problem of splits would, undoubtedly, be to reduce the water pressure. The question is, how? I wonder if there has been a mega-heavy rain, and you worrying about splits, would it be possible to say make a crimp in the vine a few feet in front of the fruit without actually reducing the potential of the fruit, by uncrimping the vine later? Hmmm, probably not. But I think another way to reduce the sudden increase of water pressure would be to slowly build up the pressure. I have heard Brett Hester post somewhere before that he slowly increases his late summer/early fall watering in preparation of "the inevitable fall rains". So would an slowly increased water pressure not be so devestating as a sudden increase? I wonder if we were aware that say, in two days there is going to be a major rainstorm. My idea would be to get the hose out, if it's not already there, and start watering! And then a few hours later, water some more, a bit more this time. Then when the rain comes, there is less of a chance of it affecting the plant.

10/14/2005 11:46:18 AM

Abbotsford, B.C

I was just thinking though, if it is true that water goes inbetween the cells, then why is there never any excess water or fluid in the cavity of the fruit? If the water was actually going inbetween the cells, wouldn't it make sense that some water would be collecting in the cavity?


Cameron

10/14/2005 11:46:32 AM

Montoursville, PA

Let's try to get back to basics. If a small crack appears the fruit attempts, to heal it. Most, of the time, small cracks heal themselves. The ones that heal are most often simple growth expansion cracks.

If any crack or surface damage is large enough, to hold water, or not be self healed it will most, of the time, be attacked, by pathegons and the rot is unpreventable.

If a plant absorbs water into any, of it's parts, it becomes a part, of the total biological process. It does not as raw ordinary water drop into the fruit. If it does find entry, to the fruit, or any part, of the plant pathegons go with it and the ball game is over. The fruit, or other plant part, will be lost, to rot or decay.

Immediate intervention can sometimes help, in minor situations. Fungicides or surface PH adjustment, by other applications may give the plant a moment, to catch up and heal itself, in minor situations.

The misting you witness, in the green grocery and fruit departments is, to prevent dehydration and surface degrading factors. In the case, of corky skin, there may be surface absorbtion. Misting also presents a better looking product longer. Cooling, of the surface, by water evaporation also retards the spoiling time period. Any weight gain is questionable because the fruit is harvested and dehydrating, from the moment, of harvesting.

10/14/2005 11:54:29 AM

Montoursville, PA

Any food or nutrients foliar fed is delivered, by process, to the plant, at a very high effciency level. Those foliar sprays that are accepted and taken in, by the leaves travels at the rate, of one foot per hour, in pumpkins, to the roots. The roots then expel them, to the specialized bacterial zone near the roots which converts all complex food, water, and other needs including minerals, to something the roots can take back in, and deliver, to the part, of the plant that needs it. We know, by observation, only that the return, to the plant, is very fast too. The reason we think water may directly perk up our leaves is the fact we relieved heat stress and evaporation, from the leaves giving the roots a chance, to perform their process and catch up, to the losses that were visually evident. If the soil is not damp enough, for the roots to do this it takes longer and more water added, to enable the process.

10/14/2005 11:54:44 AM

Follansbee, Wv

"Those foliar sprays that are accepted and taken in, by the leaves travels at the rate, of one foot per hour, in pumpkins, to the roots. The roots then expel them, to the specialized bacterial zone near the roots which converts all complex food, water, and other needs including minerals, to something the roots can take back in, and deliver, to the part, of the plant that needs it."

The roots then expel them??? The roots/"specialized bacterial zone"? Did you not read my post about photosynthesis? For Pete's sake, lets keep this on a believable level please.

Doc, I admire your spunk, but please don't give out mis-information, it only hurts people in the long run. If you have sources to back your "expels it to the specialized bacterial zone" theory, I would love to read them. Meanwhile, if you like, I can quote several sources on photosynthesis, and it's role in plant developement.

10/14/2005 10:36:14 PM

Montoursville, PA

True Monty but photosynthesis only starts the process. Even after the roots are rotted and gone the vigor and last efforts, to recover, are still being attempted, by the leaves which then soon fail also, to cause a rebirth. I have presented nothing that is not accruate, in layman's terms. No self conceived theory is included. Those who wish, to consider, or know the rest, of the story, in layman's terms, are reading the posts with much interest.

The complete accurate story has been told. One may accept the knowledge or reject it. That's pretty much an individual option.

10/15/2005 9:36:00 AM

Abbotsford, B.C

Ummmm, docgipe, it sounds really neat, but I would be interested in finding out your sources too. Did you get this information from a certain book, website, newspaper article, etc etc? Or are you actually a plant biologist? In which case that would make your claims a bit more believable. I mean, how can you actually measure how fast the nutrients are traveling through the plant? I think that would be exceedingly difficult to do so. Plus how do you know that the roots are actually expelling anything the nutrients? If the bacteria are changing them as you say, wouldn't it be kind of difficult to ever even know what the roots have expelled, or if they have even expelled anything? If the bacteria are always converting this expelled stuff, then all we can measure is some complex stuff near the roots, that we can guess is created by biological activity, but from what? we can't say. Just my thoughts, please respond, this is quite interesting. Also how do you know that when water is being absorbed from the outside of the fruit, that it's bringing pathogens with it? I think it would depend on how big the water absorbers in the skin are. I know in plant cells, particles have to be pretty small to enter them, which is what the water would have to do in order to be absorbed by the fruit. How could the pathogens be carried along with the water, I'd be interested to know?

Cameron

10/16/2005 10:22:27 PM

Montoursville, PA

I feel, by this time, most know that I am a Road's Scholar very much interested like you, in the evolving discovery, of biological truths. I have probably read three times more data, books and papers than my real Master's Degree in Education demanded. I have had fifty or more years in the garden. Until attempting to grow a nasty huge pumpkin I was able, to sustain healthy soil without the use, of harsh chemicals.

The sources of my present..and hopefully growing knowledge and yes possibly some theory yet to be absolutely proven is from such folks as: Dr. Elaine Ingham perhaps the world leader, in well documented study. A publication simply called ACRES that has many contributors all working with practices leading, to a better understanding, of the biological relationship, of soil, plants and profitable management of organic principles. Another fine read are the monthly newsletters from Bio Organics, Inc. Here you find many good and interesting relationships between the fungi and the plant roots.

10/17/2005 9:19:51 AM

Montoursville, PA

The water question is already answered, in my post. I agree that pathegons do not not absorb into the plant if the plant is healthy. If they do they are controlled, by the good guys, in the healthy plant or fruit. I stand on the comment that anything absorbed is entered into the total process not as raw water or any other raw complex element placed or sprayed onto the plant or any part there of.

The subject, of specialized bacteria, is well known now, in the compost bundle, of activity from raw complex to finished humus. If it is completely finished there have been a number of specialized bacterial actions each group or mass, of bacteria working only, when in their known temperature ranges for the specific purpose known only to them. It is now known that these wonders, of the biological process involve different players. A few have been specifically identified....just a few. This field is wide open, to continued study.

God only knows where I read the root zone specialized bacterial involvement. The radio active tracing, of the process was related, to me, by a representative, of a leading company, in foliar feeding. The gentleman was a biologist with papers......so to speak. That was good enough, for me, to accept. I saw no reason, to nit pick or raise doubt.

You younger growers with reasonable ability, to dig further even directly get involved have time, on your side will find many interesting developments now scientifically documented that have, to do with, the importance of biology, science and chemistry. How this all mingles together as one total thing called life is perhaps the most interesting active study going, on today.

As far as documentation by myself......I did not know I was writing a term paper, for my professors. I laid before you the process that has been given, to me, by folks far more knowledgeable than I.

10/17/2005 10:04:45 AM

Montoursville, PA

Geese I was even attempting, to keep it light and simple enough, for anyone. I shall not attempt, to travel back, for that which I consider a foolish waste, of time. I shall continue, to read, and talk, to satisfy my simple mind. If I find I have miss led anyone, in anything that really matters I will be the first, to make a specialized post, in an effort, to show or report new found theory, fact or practices.

10/17/2005 10:05:26 AM

Abbotsford, B.C

Gotcha. Right, I forgot about radioactive tracing, that would definitely work. Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time for such in-depth answers.

Cameron

10/17/2005 1:31:01 PM

wilmington,ma.

This is the most interesting post I have read so far.
Thank you all.

10/17/2005 2:16:33 PM

Ohio

can someone tell me where babies come from?

10/26/2005 6:48:02 PM

Utah

Brooks ... the stork brings them !

10/27/2005 9:45:43 AM

Montoursville, PA

Geese now with the test tube babies there is no gurarentee that not the stork, but rather, a dork starts them off, in real life. Until recently there had to be a dork ahead of the stork.

10/29/2005 8:25:28 PM

Hayes, Virginia

so hummmm...
Oh forget it, my brain would explode if i read anymore.

HAPPY HALLOWEEN EVERYONE!!!
Ed

10/29/2005 9:03:16 PM